How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Talk about Arkham Origins and Arkham Origins Blackgate from WB Games Montreal, Splash Damage and Armature Studios.

Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby M. Malone » Jan 28th, 2015, 2:51 pm

thatguywiththebeanie wrote:4. I liked Joker revealing himself as Black Mask but they shouldn't of made Black Mask a side mission. Also, I liked everything up until the end of the Royal Hotel mission. Everything after that was crap. I only liked the Firefly fight because it felt like it had nothing to do with the plot that was going on at that moment and it felt like we were back playing the first half of the game, being Assassins trying to kill you.
5. I wanted the Assassins to fight eachother in order to kill you. It would've been awesome in the middle of a fight with an Assassin their health suddenly drains and they fall to the ground. You investigate the body and area and find out Deadshot killed him from a distance or he had a slow acting poison from Copperhead. Just SOMETHING!


4. Huh, that's funny. I thought the game's story really took off and was compelling after the Royal Hotel. Before that I was getting kind of bored.

5. Agreed, and based on that Deathstroke trailer we got early on, that's what I expected would happen. Oh well.
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby FearGasVictim11 » Feb 2nd, 2015, 3:23 pm

For me, the only real letdown was the environment. The city felt really dull and uninspired. No real easter eggs, no real character. In Asylum and City Gotham felt more elaborated and gritty. In Origins it felt rushed and unexciting. Otherwise the game was great. Good storyline and it did most of the characters justice.
Maybe the assassins getting into each others way more, as some posters have mentioned, would have added to the experience, other than that I thought it was a really good game.
Oh and now that I think of it...the boss battles could have been a little more imaginative sometimes.
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby Sionis the Boss » Feb 4th, 2015, 6:52 pm

[quote="crush8503"]*I'll respond to your points in bold

- Take out Joker's Role in the Game Completely: I'm probably in the minority but I had no problem with him being Black Mask. I enjoyed the twist. I didn't see it coming and, in a way, it's the kind of thing Joker would do. This allowed for the story to shift gears and flesh out the Batman/Joker relationship in a way that hadn't been done in the previous games. In my opinion, it gave more context to Joker's death in Arkham City and foreshadows the story of a world without Joker in Arkham Knight.

I have to disagree with u here. Joker has never been the type to seek control of gotham's crime. Sure, he has had many gangs, but they were only as large as they had to be. Joker isn't a mob boss like Black Mask. His gang in AC is only a threat to other gangs because Joker needed it to be to survive. Black Mask has a gang to do business. His massive empire requires sofistication and discipline, the type I have NEVER seen Joker show before.
I think they could have made Joker the main villain and still not ruined Black Mask. I actualy wouldn't have minded Black Mask being a secondary villain. It does make sense to have batman' worst enemy in his "origin" story. I think I heard this somewhere but the Arkham series is kinda like Star Wars. AA and AC were brilliant, like episode 4 and 5. Ppl think and hope AK will be like episode 6. AO was episode 1. Actualy, it was pretty fun so let's make it 3. :blackmask:
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby crush8503 » Feb 5th, 2015, 4:11 am

Sionis the Boss wrote:
crush8503 wrote:*I'll respond to your points in bold

- Take out Joker's Role in the Game Completely: I'm probably in the minority but I had no problem with him being Black Mask. I enjoyed the twist. I didn't see it coming and, in a way, it's the kind of thing Joker would do. This allowed for the story to shift gears and flesh out the Batman/Joker relationship in a way that hadn't been done in the previous games. In my opinion, it gave more context to Joker's death in Arkham City and foreshadows the story of a world without Joker in Arkham Knight.

I have to disagree with u here. Joker has never been the type to seek control of gotham's crime. Sure, he has had many gangs, but they were only as large as they had to be. Joker isn't a mob boss like Black Mask. His gang in AC is only a threat to other gangs because Joker needed it to be to survive. Black Mask has a gang to do business. His massive empire requires sofistication and discipline, the type I have NEVER seen Joker show before.
I think they could have made Joker the main villain and still not ruined Black Mask. I actualy wouldn't have minded Black Mask being a secondary villain. It does make sense to have batman' worst enemy in his "origin" story. I think I heard this somewhere but the Arkham series is kinda like Star Wars. AA and AC were brilliant, like episode 4 and 5. Ppl think and hope AK will be like episode 6. AO was episode 1. Actualy, it was pretty fun so let's make it 3. :blackmask:


It was never his intention to control Gotham's criminal underworld. Impersonating Black Mask was reminiscent of what happened in Arkham City (Clayface pretending to be Joker). The whole thing was a sick joke; very much in-line with his character. He only pretended to be Black Mask so that he could use Sionis' money to hire the assassins. Once he revealed himself to be the Joker, many of Black Mask's men joined up with him and the criminal underworld saw just how easily he took over Black Mask's operations. This is also a nice nod to Arkham City (with Joker using the Sionis Steel Mill as his headquarters).
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby Sionis the Boss » Feb 5th, 2015, 2:08 pm

What if the first half or first quarter of the game was about Batman fighting the 8 assassins and Black Mask (if it's first quarter then the game will get quite a bit longer). But when all the assassins fail and Batman successfully begins dismantling Black Mask's empire, he turns to the Joker who says he knows how to crush the bat. With the remaining assassins still after the prize and Joker running around with funding from Black Mask, things could get alot more interesting. What do you guys think? Feel free to add on. It's an idea in its begining stages :blackmask:
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby HaHaHa » Mar 8th, 2015, 3:56 pm

First off I would have gone with a batsuit seen here in this concept art for Origins.
Image

I don't dislike the Origins batsuit but I don't find it that interesting either. To me it looks plain and uninspiring. It was like the safe option as far as batsuits go. Bruce never seems that much younger in Origins either. I would have liked to have had a sleeker Bruce who relies on stealth and speed rather than brute force.
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby The man who laughs » Apr 19th, 2015, 11:25 am

I liked the game but it was a let down in terms of the hype:
For example I would change:
Made black mask the main villain and him having a bounty on batmand head
Joker being a side mission character
Killer croc and firefly should have been side mission characters
A gang warfare between Maroni, falcon, black mask and penguin gangs that happen quite often on the streets
Better use of cinematics like Sionis threatening police officers
No glue grenades
No tn-1
Instead of the electrocutioner, firefly and killer croc as assassins, I'd have them as side mission characters working for black mask.i would replace David Cain, Black spider and onomatopoeia as asssasins
Better free roaming atmosphere
More civilians
More corrupt policemen in the story
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby dk09w1ngz » Apr 19th, 2015, 6:57 pm

Reduce the amount of bugs, and make Jokes playable for once!

Oh, and redesign Gotham to not have stupid space restrictions in Combat.
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby Jack out of Box » May 18th, 2015, 5:40 pm

Recently I have been replaying the Arkham games and am currently through Origins which prompted me to return to my thoughts on this issue and refine and compile them.

I think it's best to begin with my own personal and incomplete historical retelling of the Road to Origins with some hindsight thrown in.
From the initial reveal Origins was sold on the premise of having eight deadly assassins hired by one of Gotham's most merciless and Powerful Crime Lords attempt to Kill Batman while he is still within one or two years of his vigilante career. The developers restated this premise in almost every interview, gameplay video, discussion and article up to release and even going so far as to say they felt Black Mask was under-utilized and deserved the spotlight for once. WBGM was the new studio undertaking this endeavor which was met with the usual media stigma of being a bad thing (unfairly in my opinion). In our present time we can gather that they weren't given all the freedom they may have needed from WB and development was somewhat hindered and constricted time and budget-wise. We can also see from the final product that the design philosophy for the game seemed to copy a lot from the more-recent Arkham city and borrowed heavily from its assets, mission design, gameplay mechanics and animations. whether this was due to laziness, budget constraints or some corporate/media pressuring to stay the same we can't tell but it seems that something was going on behind the scenes as evidenced by the unusual removal of the nightmare skin for batman.

Now the debate over Origins has become quite polarized with some hating it, some loving it and the middle ground who loves what it does well and wishes to reconcile the more series-conflicting or gameplay-hindering transgressions. It is my experience that there are a lot of conflicting emotions surrounding this entry into the Arkhamverse and it can be difficult to maintain perspective and a clear mindset free from predispositions, stigmas, lack of perspective and other outside elements that don't have any bearing on critique of the actual product. Gaming is littered with examples where a majority of fans and critiques unfairly judge a game on false premises or unfair standards and do so using simple arguments that drown out the more level-headed and complex analyses. it's easier for the majority to latch onto simple arguments or just go with their gut emotions and minimal introspection into their experience.

To truly Critique Origins is to seek its improvement and recognize its strengths, not to give it a lower score out of 10 and write it off as a sore spot in the franchise.

The way I've chosen to structure this is say what I would changes and then include my reasoning in spoiler tags

1. Back to the Initial Premise
- Concerning Origins, there should be a plan to have two or three segments of Batman's beginnings. The first is Bruce waynes traveling and path to becoming batman even including his first year. The second Origin segment is batman learning the ropes, forging relationships with allies and making an effective dent in crime. The third segment is his initial encounter with supervillains and cementing his identity as batman.
Origins 1 = this game, origins 2 = sequel with supervillains. Year one can be summed up in challenge campaigns or a prologue to Origins 1

-Story reworking Black Mask is main villain, 8 assassins provide momentum and gravity to plot, other crime lords and gangs provide side mission activities. No joker (unless epilogue content) and either fully complete Bane origin or purely set up.
Spoiler: show
Joker's inclusion as well as Banes both take a phenomenal and complicated orgins and cram them into a much smaller and condensed plot. This causes all stories to suffer in my opinion. While origins contains fantastic plot moments such as joker's retelling of his origin it only stands out on it's own and not as a complimenting factor to a larger story. Save these two for a sequel to fully do them justice and not hinder the initial premise. Batman's beginnings should focus purely on the human crime element such as the gangs and armed thugs. This also allows more police involvement and more entertaining crime scenes


2.Gameplay
-Fix the upgrade progression system to be non-linear
-add more to predator such as moving enviroments(train/dirigible) moving elements(conveyor belt/cranes)
Spoiler: show
predator only had the addition of the remote claw which was an overpowered addition that cheapened the game. The PR system really didn't change anything

-fix combat bugs concerning dropping combo meter, new enemy types, overly-aggressive enemies ruining fluidity

-Detective mode Have interactive elements and multiple pieces of evidence. have us revisit scenes when other evidence shows up. Don't let batman's inner narrative tell us what to do. Have us actually have to connect pieces together and visit the batcave to use different machines. have all the evidence lead us to the culprit and location without the game ever telling us.
Spoiler: show
the crime scene investigations were about as interactive as turning a page on a book that had a big red arrow pointing to the next page. This was not gameplay but instead a way to draw out and present narrative. The solution would be to gve the player more detective mechanics that require the player to know when and how to use them. the player would then have to read/analyze/ follow/ inspect and interperet what they see themselves. the player would then have to decide if they have found enough to come to a conclusion and then act on it. complicated but worth the effort


-the level design needs to be more saturated. Gotham felt empty and bland to look at and I struggled to find much easter eggs or references. There are also some sections where we face enemies that are poorly designed and clunky to move around

3.Continuity
-Eliminate any direct connections to Arkham Asylum/City. no bane transformation and NO QUINCY LINK TO LEAGUE OF ASSASSINS
Spoiler: show
If origins is going to integrate itself into the arkhamverse it needs to be done properly and not conflict with the other games. Any fan of the franchise knows that these two stand out of the worst offenders

-character designs such as should match up to other games
-set up for other villains would enhance origins place as a prequel but should be done so as to not conflict with the other games
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby guztov » May 18th, 2015, 6:48 pm

Jack out of Box wrote:Recently I have been replaying the Arkham games and am currently through Origins which prompted me to return to my thoughts on this issue and refine and compile them.

I think it's best to begin with my own personal and incomplete historical retelling of the Road to Origins with some hindsight thrown in.
From the initial reveal Origins was sold on the premise of having eight deadly assassins hired by one of Gotham's most merciless and Powerful Crime Lords attempt to Kill Batman while he is still within one or two years of his vigilante career. The developers restated this premise in almost every interview, gameplay video, discussion and article up to release and even going so far as to say they felt Black Mask was under-utilized and deserved the spotlight for once. WBGM was the new studio undertaking this endeavor which was met with the usual media stigma of being a bad thing (unfairly in my opinion). In our present time we can gather that they weren't given all the freedom they may have needed from WB and development was somewhat hindered and constricted time and budget-wise. We can also see from the final product that the design philosophy for the game seemed to copy a lot from the more-recent Arkham city and borrowed heavily from its assets, mission design, gameplay mechanics and animations. whether this was due to laziness, budget constraints or some corporate/media pressuring to stay the same we can't tell but it seems that something was going on behind the scenes as evidenced by the unusual removal of the nightmare skin for batman.

Now the debate over Origins has become quite polarized with some hating it, some loving it and the middle ground who loves what it does well and wishes to reconcile the more series-conflicting or gameplay-hindering transgressions. It is my experience that there are a lot of conflicting emotions surrounding this entry into the Arkhamverse and it can be difficult to maintain perspective and a clear mindset free from predispositions, stigmas, lack of perspective and other outside elements that don't have any bearing on critique of the actual product. Gaming is littered with examples where a majority of fans and critiques unfairly judge a game on false premises or unfair standards and do so using simple arguments that drown out the more level-headed and complex analyses. it's easier for the majority to latch onto simple arguments or just go with their gut emotions and minimal introspection into their experience.

To truly Critique Origins is to seek its improvement and recognize its strengths, not to give it a lower score out of 10 and write it off as a sore spot in the franchise.

The way I've chosen to structure this is say what I would changes and then include my reasoning in spoiler tags

1. Back to the Initial Premise
- Concerning Origins, there should be a plan to have two or three segments of Batman's beginnings. The first is Bruce waynes traveling and path to becoming batman even including his first year. The second Origin segment is batman learning the ropes, forging relationships with allies and making an effective dent in crime. The third segment is his initial encounter with supervillains and cementing his identity as batman.
Origins 1 = this game, origins 2 = sequel with supervillains. Year one can be summed up in challenge campaigns or a prologue to Origins 1

-Story reworking Black Mask is main villain, 8 assassins provide momentum and gravity to plot, other crime lords and gangs provide side mission activities. No joker (unless epilogue content) and either fully complete Bane origin or purely set up.
Spoiler: show
Joker's inclusion as well as Banes both take a phenomenal and complicated orgins and cram them into a much smaller and condensed plot. This causes all stories to suffer in my opinion. While origins contains fantastic plot moments such as joker's retelling of his origin it only stands out on it's own and not as a complimenting factor to a larger story. Save these two for a sequel to fully do them justice and not hinder the initial premise. Batman's beginnings should focus purely on the human crime element such as the gangs and armed thugs. This also allows more police involvement and more entertaining crime scenes


2.Gameplay
-Fix the upgrade progression system to be non-linear
-add more to predator such as moving enviroments(train/dirigible) moving elements(conveyor belt/cranes)
Spoiler: show
predator only had the addition of the remote claw which was an overpowered addition that cheapened the game. The PR system really didn't change anything

-fix combat bugs concerning dropping combo meter, new enemy types, overly-aggressive enemies ruining fluidity

-Detective mode Have interactive elements and multiple pieces of evidence. have us revisit scenes when other evidence shows up. Don't let batman's inner narrative tell us what to do. Have us actually have to connect pieces together and visit the batcave to use different machines. have all the evidence lead us to the culprit and location without the game ever telling us.
Spoiler: show
the crime scene investigations were about as interactive as turning a page on a book that had a big red arrow pointing to the next page. This was not gameplay but instead a way to draw out and present narrative. The solution would be to gve the player more detective mechanics that require the player to know when and how to use them. the player would then have to read/analyze/ follow/ inspect and interperet what they see themselves. the player would then have to decide if they have found enough to come to a conclusion and then act on it. complicated but worth the effort


-the level design needs to be more saturated. Gotham felt empty and bland to look at and I struggled to find much easter eggs or references. There are also some sections where we face enemies that are poorly designed and clunky to move around

3.Continuity
-Eliminate any direct connections to Arkham Asylum/City. no bane transformation and NO QUINCY LINK TO LEAGUE OF ASSASSINS
Spoiler: show
If origins is going to integrate itself into the arkhamverse it needs to be done properly and not conflict with the other games. Any fan of the franchise knows that these two stand out of the worst offenders

-character designs such as should match up to other games
-set up for other villains would enhance origins place as a prequel but should be done so as to not conflict with the other games

Thanks

I also have been replaying the other games lately and wanted to write similar thing about AO. You saved me the trouble. Nicely done :batman: .

Points you have made are pretty much what i thought about, although i would like to add one of mine.

Environment and setting
- Imagine the world more in the past, both technology (including Batman gadgets) and habit wise
- Leave the years between events open for fans to discuss rather than set a specific timeline, this includes the all year 2 thing
- Make Gotham worse by placing homeless people on to street (even in camps like in AC) and make crimes in progress more about mugging people rather than corrupt cops. Show how bad Gotham really is.
Spoiler: show
one of the big turn offs was the how the origins setting felt. Since so much was borrowed from AC, many gameplay elements (like thugs weaponry, Batmans gadgets) and environment design was to modern for a setting that takes place in the past. In Rocksteadys games the technology progression has been a important part of Batman, as mentioned before he constantly upgrades his weaponry. In origins that feeling is lost.
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby dk09w1ngz » May 18th, 2015, 9:42 pm

Not having Batman know Bane and vice versa. Seriously, that was really bothersome. Also making all 8 assassins be part of the main story. Also not releasing till all kinks were worked out. Joker maps. Combat maps with Deathstroke versus all the seven other assassins. Combat maps fighting alongside Gordon.
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby HaHaHa » May 20th, 2015, 10:03 am

By taking the cracked lense effect out of the sky during the second half of the Royal hotel Bane boss fight. That ruined the game for me.
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby Batcrow » Jun 3rd, 2015, 2:09 pm

I'm like Two-Face with this one :twoface: I have very conflicting feelings towards it.

On the one hand, Origins had the following problems:
1. Environments were overly complex, like going through the Final Offer
2. The unarguable continuity issues such as the Grapnel Boost Accelerator existing.
3. Arguable continuity issues such as keeping the new combat system from AC which I feel is part of the story because it shows a more refined Batman, and quickfire gadgets, etc.
4. The OP combat system whose sins included
Spoiler: show
The Shock Gloves

5. The OP predator system whose sins included
Spoiler: show
The Remote Claw

6. Croc's :croc: voice
7. The overuse of certain enemy types, (Martial Artists and Enforcers)
8. The Initiation DLC had no story.
9. Copying Arkham Knight (Most Wanted, Blue Theme, Firefly, etc.)
10. Lack of skill needed in Crime Scene investigations.
11. Repetitive Crime in Progresses
12. And finally, the glitchiness of course (I've had two game-breaking ones).

On the other it did nice things as well:
1. Beautiful Batsuit, and other character designs
2.
Spoiler: show
The Joker was well done, despite what people say, because only he would be crazy enough to make them reopen the asylum (ARKHAM Origins, not BATMAN Origins).

3. Though unnecessary, and obviously not canon, the multiplayer was fun.
4. The prototype Line Launcher/Batmobile was a nice touch.
5. The Batcave's suit changer/combat training areas were very cool.
6. Compelling story with powerful moments, my favorite moment, perhaps amongst all Arkham Games even, is
Spoiler: show
"My partner?" "Who else would jump off a building to save your sorry ass?' "I was just wondering the same thing."

7. Counter symbols were included in the "Hints" setting.
8. Martial Artists were cool, despite weird looking animations.
9. The Case Files were cool, and would have been better if not for the crime scene game mechanics
10. And finally, Enigma/Riddler was beautifully implemented into the game, possibly even better than in AC.

So what do you guys think, do you agree or disagree? Did I miss something? I'd like to here your thoughts. Thanks--Batcrow
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby BuNKiTZ » Jun 3rd, 2015, 2:41 pm

Batcrow wrote:8. The Initiation DLC had no story.
9. Copying Arkham Knight (Most Wanted, Blue Theme, Firefly, etc.)

...Initiation was a Campaign Map with a story. That was literally what it was.

How could it be copying Arkham Knight? If anything, it's Arkham Knight that's copying Arkham Origins. Jesus Christ.

:I :I :I

Batcrow wrote:10. And finally, Enigma/Riddler was beautifully implemented into the game, possibly even better than in AC.

I'm assuming you're referring to the story, right...? Cause in terms of gameplay, the puzzles were done very poorly.
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Re: How would you make Arkham Origins better?

Postby HaHaHa » Jun 3rd, 2015, 4:59 pm

BuNKiTZ wrote:
Batcrow wrote:8. The Initiation DLC had no story.
9. Copying Arkham Knight (Most Wanted, Blue Theme, Firefly, etc.)

...Initiation was a Campaign Map with a story. That was literally what it was.

How could it be copying Arkham Knight? If anything, it's Arkham Knight that's copying Arkham Origins. Jesus Christ.

:I :I :I


Well Knight and Origins started production around the same time so it's not impossible. It's possible that there was a conversation between WB, Rocksteady and Montreal about features they wanted to appear in both games. What's the Blue Theme?
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