The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

The place to discuss Arrow, The Flash, Constantine and Gotham, as well as future shows such as the upcoming Supergirl, Krypton and Titans

The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby M. Malone » Sep 29th, 2014, 2:17 pm

Okay, so... I had been waiting on the show for so long, I actually forgot about it and the pilot aired without me watching. I honestly haven't had a chance to watch it yet, so I feel sorta hypocritical starting this thread, but seriously... This is a BATMAN site and there's only one thread on a new show about GOTHAM CITY and there isn't a single new post on that thread since the show was released?

WTH? Did I enter the Twilight Zone?

What did you guys and gals think about the new show? I'm curious...
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Re: Did anyone watch 'Gotham'?

Postby batman404 » Sep 29th, 2014, 4:45 pm

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Re: Did anyone watch 'Gotham'?

Postby M. Malone » Sep 29th, 2014, 10:22 pm




:I

Thanks for the help, but.... Seriously? People are going to be talking about a dozen different shows in over 160 pages, and if I want to discuss the show I have to post there?

That makes no sense. That's like lumping every Batman video game ever made into one topic. But thanks for the link nonetheless.
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Re: Did anyone watch 'Gotham'?

Postby Red_Robin » Sep 30th, 2014, 6:34 am

M. Malone wrote:
batman404 wrote:Here ya go...

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=12919



:I

Thanks for the help, but.... Seriously? People are going to be talking about a dozen different shows in over 160 pages, and if I want to discuss the show I have to post there?

That makes no sense. That's like lumping every Batman video game ever made into one topic. But thanks for the link nonetheless.


No, it's a Batman show, we're a Batman site. Gotham needs it's own topic, this may as well be it.

I spoke to Elliott as I watched it. We were not impressed. I'll continue to watch as I would like a good show, but the whole concept is flawed.
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Re: The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby AbbieXEric » Sep 30th, 2014, 6:28 pm

I wonder if we'll see a young killer croc in a "Freak show"
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Re: The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby johnsyggel » Sep 30th, 2014, 6:50 pm

I liked the pilot,but i don't know where they're going with it...I mean that i'm afraid it might become just an ordinary cop tv show,only with comic characters.I liked Alfred,Bullock and Penguin,i hated Fish,Ivy Pepper(seriously?) and the fact they're trying to squeeze Joker in the show.
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Re: The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby AbbieXEric » Sep 30th, 2014, 6:54 pm

johnsyggel wrote:I liked the pilot,but i don't know where they're going with it...I mean that i'm afraid it might become just an ordinary cop tv show,only with comic characters.I liked Alfred,Bullock and Penguin,i hated Fish,Ivy Pepper(seriously?) and the fact they're trying to squeeze Joker in the show.

I don't get the problem with ivy pepper? Her name was originally Lillian Rose if i remember correctly and they changed it besides its implied she'll be adopted
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Re: The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby TheJester » Sep 30th, 2014, 7:20 pm

Moving my comments from the DC TV thread to here -

Elliott wrote:I'm not a fan of how we're apparently getting the villains half-baked (not to mention it's placing lots of them at 15 years Batman's senior) - Zsasz is a character that genuinely would have benefited from a little origin treatment, showing him as a rich frat boy who can't find meaning in life, maybe even interacting with Bruce, and slowly morhping over the season before killing someone.

Hell I'd fanboy so hard if for the whole season we'd known him as a rich frat boy called Victor, and at the end of S1 had him kill someone in his mansion before carving a tally into skin and demanding that an onlooker call him "Mr. Zsasz". S2 could have his family try and cover up his addiction before he murders them or something... Christ as a character there's so much room for social commentary on the wage gap, but it seems we're getting generic mobster.

This is why I really don't like they way they've presented him. I think it could have been so great to see his gambling addiction worsen (especially if you tied him in with Fish Mooney etc) and for him to lose his touch with reality.

I also completely agree with your point that they're skipping over most of these characters' origins and are going straight to their villain personas. What makes these characters so interesting is how they came to be, and I think they've missed a vital opportunity there.

Regardless, I'm still eager to see what they do with these characters (pretty excited to see what they'll do with Pyg) and see where this Arkham City storyline goes.
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Re: The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby Arkham_Knight23 » Sep 30th, 2014, 7:29 pm

I'm loving this show. Ed's performance last night was an improvement over the pilot.

Spoiler: show
I wonder who they'll get to play Dollmaker.
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Re: The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby AbbieXEric » Sep 30th, 2014, 8:07 pm

Arkham_Knight23 wrote:I'm loving this show. Ed's performance last night was an improvement over the pilot.

Spoiler: show
I wonder who they'll get to play Dollmaker.

Thats if he even appears(Which is likely) But i wonder which version it is. I mean barton is probably too young
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Re: The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby Chob » Oct 1st, 2014, 5:53 am

Cool. I was wondering if it was going to get its own topic, even asked what people thought about starting one in general but forgot about it. I just finished catching up on what I missed of the second episode. Don't know what the call is on spoilers in here, so I'll spoiler tag this whole thing because I tend to ramble so it'll make the post shorter, and I'll be mentioning story details too.

Spoiler: show
What I like:
-The look of Gotham. It hits a balance between a modern looking city yet with a somewhat ambiguous in time frame which I like, and a more stylized, comic booky Gotham. It hits a balance that I think was last done well in Batman Begins and I think this show does it better. Just having watched episode 2, I was reminded of a Lee Bermejo/Brian Azzarello style Gotham. The look of the medical supply place, Fish's place, the GCPD itself. There's a lot of nice touches and it gives the show a look that helps it stand out from a generic cop drama and it just feels right to me.

-Donal Logue. He's great. I've been a fan since Grounded for Life and his casting was the first thing I heard about the show that I liked. Bullock in general...I'll get to that in the next part.

-Robin Lord Taylor. While I have a minor gripe about the lack of an accent, I think he's poised to be the breakout star of the show. I think they've done probably the best job of setting him up to be the Penguin we know and love without rushing things.

-Cory Michael Smith. They might be rushing things just a tad, which is a gripe with the series itself and I'll get to later. But he is one to watch on this show. I like that in a precinct with crooked cops this nerdy dude ends up the biggest (apparently) problem later on.

-The lack of over reliance on Bruce/Alfred. And for good reason which I'll cover in the next part.

-I like that the show isn't afraid to be campy as hell when it deems it necessary. And I think the backdrop of the city and how seriously things are presented otherwise strikes a good balance.

-John Doman. Here's another guy I think has the potential to steal the show. He owns the role and his scenes are a highlight. He's one of the most believable guys on the show.

What I don't like:
-Bullock's characterization. Now I get that in his original pre-Crisis incarnation he was a lot more of a crooked cop. But I feel like they went too much in that direction here early on, or someone working for the show just watched Batman Begins and made Bullock Flass-lite.

I get that there's different interpretations of the character, but he comes off a bit too much like an over the top cliched crooked cop. At least in the first episode though I'll say I liked him better in the second. But I can't for the life of me see this Bullock as someone who would oppose Batman's later intervention if that's the way they're headed. Unless what they're going for is a character arc where Bullock cleans up his act while Gordon learns to compromise and they end up being a bit more like the other's former self.

Maybe I'm too slavishly devoted to the BTAS version. But I think it makes it a bit harder to sympathize with him when they go too much in the direction they have.

-Bruce's characterization. He comes off like a freakin' stereotype that someone that doesn't like Batman would come up with. I LISTEN TO ANGRY METAL. I BURN MYSELF WITH CANDLES. I MAKE DISTURBING DRAWINGS. I GET UP ON THE ROOF. I get that a kid wouldn't necessarily deal with these circumstances rationally, but at the same time we have to believe that this kid eventually becomes the Batman. This show lacks subtlety at times and this is one of those times. The whole show feels loaded with forced melodrama to me. For a Batman show. Let that sink in. :lol:

-Everything feels a bit rushed. I get that the pilot by its nature has to set up a lot. But there was way too much going on and I felt the Ivy subplot could've been put off for a later episode. I think the show runs the risk of introducing too many things and letting plot threads dangle for too long while other plot threads are being developed.

What I'm unsure about:
-McKenzie is competent, but I don't feel like there's anything about him that screams "Gordon." And that's more on the writing side of things. He feels like a generic "honest cop" trope and he runs the risk of being overshadowed by a colorful cast. I get that we need to give him time to grow. And his characterization is a hell of a lot better than Bullock's IMO.

-Fish Mooney. Smith is campy as hell in the role and it's enjoyable at times. She still feels like a generic mobster who serves only to give Penguin a backstory and Falcone an antagonist. She's the least interesting character to me in a colorful cast.

-Selina. Besides making her a witness to the Wayne murders, which at the time made me immediately repulsed and now I've decided to give that twist a chance to develop, she seems like she's way too shoehorned in as being an overly important heroic character. I'd like to see this show as it develops make her a more morally ambiguous character who learns to manipulate things for her own benefit. You can sort of see that when she's in the police station. Yeah, it's a child actor, what can you do. But that "I'll say you touched me" scene felt cringeworthy as hell to me. I like Camren in the role. But I think they could stand to make her less plucky teen hero, and more morally grey. So she stole to survive and gouged out a child trafficker's eyeballs. That doesn't make her an antihero. Hell the cops on the show have done worse.

And keep her away from Bruce and not have them meet. Her watching him from afar works.


Overall, I liked it and didn't find anything terribly offensive minus that one story point that I'll just wait and see how it works out.

Also I think Elliot makes a good point, like I said things are being unnecessarily rushed in my opinion and if we gave the more well known characters time to develop, it would work in the show's favor.

I kind of feel they shot themselves in the foot a bit setting this right after the Waynes were shot and not skipping ahead a bit to at least Bruce's teen years. Emo 8 year old Bruce kind of drags the show down for me, and that's not what should be happening in a Batman story.

As for Arkham City. My initial response is that it's way out of place and feels forced as hell, but it could be amusing to see the average citizen respond to such a thing. Like in episode 2 when
Spoiler: show
the child trafficker tackled the kid and no one in the fancy restaurant noticed
there's potential for social commentary, but this show doesn't seem to display the subtly necessary to do it justice.
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Re: The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby Elliott » Oct 1st, 2014, 1:55 pm

Episode 2 was much better than 1, whilst there's still some awkward dialogue it had a solid pace.

Bruce, save the metal scene, was very well characterised, and Alfred's explanation of how he will raise him is an excellent answer for how Bruce actually becomes Batman - which in itself is both childish and insane to various degrees.

The most annoying thing is that the shows strongest characters shouldn't be allowed to meet - as a viewer I desperately want to see Bruce/Selina but as a fan I believe this shouldn't happen - meaning we fall back to Gordon as the touching point for all characters.

Sadly, he's the least interesting character - he has no evolution in Gotham; in episode 2 he was already willing to bend the rules for the greater good, so he'd already welcome a dark vigilante to solve problems the law cannot, there's nowhere for him to go.

Also very pleased that they're adopting a Game of Thrones-esque rhythm. Penguin's story looks to be the most interesting, though I really am struggling to see how S2 will work with teh current character set.

The biggest criticism is that they desperately need to ease off the introduction of established villains - Batman is supposed to act as catalyst that destroys organised crime but forces it to evolve into something more insane and twisted, having villains like Dollmaster already exist simply reinforces the idea that the show would've worked much better as a straight Gotham Central adaptation.
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Re: The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby MaxSchreck » Oct 1st, 2014, 4:48 pm

The biggest criticism is that they desperately need to ease off the introduction of established villains - Batman is supposed to act as catalyst that destroys organised crime but forces it to evolve into something more insane and twisted, having villains like Dollmaster already exist simply reinforces the idea that the show would've worked much better as a straight Gotham Central adaptation.



So Batman actually makes Gotham worse rather than better? :oldyella: Sorry, but thats one of the things I hope writers would erase from the Batman mythos. Made a thread about this a while ago: viewtopic.php?f=65&t=22407


Really liked Selina in this episode, alltough I was a little shocked how she
Spoiler: show
clawed that guys eyes out.


I really wouldn´t mind if Bruce would meet her at some point. Could result in a couple of really nice scenes. Selina could be like a big sister to the poor boy :oldyella:

What also does not bother me is that Selina witnessed the murder of the Waynes. Sure, its a huge change from the canon, but it would explain why of all the love interests Batman ever had Selina is the one he had the longest relationship with. Maybe they could make this canon in an alternative continuity, like Earth 2 (where they got married later on) or an Ultimate Batman Universe like Earth One.
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Re: The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby Elliott » Oct 1st, 2014, 6:47 pm

MaxSchreck wrote:
The biggest criticism is that they desperately need to ease off the introduction of established villains - Batman is supposed to act as catalyst that destroys organised crime but forces it to evolve into something more insane and twisted, having villains like Dollmaster already exist simply reinforces the idea that the show would've worked much better as a straight Gotham Central adaptation.



So Batman actually makes Gotham worse rather than better?


Not worse, but he creates an escalation in force when he nearly wipes out all the old crime (the mob) and forces them to adapt. Pre-Batman should have Gotham over run by mundane scum that show how the city itself turns the populous into criminals - post-Batman should show Gothamites with a sense of hope and criminals that are scared of the dark.
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Re: The Weekly 'Gotham' Discussion Topic

Postby MaxSchreck » Oct 1st, 2014, 7:56 pm

Pre-Batman should have Gotham over run by mundane scum that show how the city itself turns the populous into criminals - post-Batman should show Gothamites with a sense of hope and criminals that are scared of the dark.


Yeah, thats how I saw it,too for a long time. But when Batman is responsible for petty criminals turning into villains like the Joker he kills more people than he saves. Sure, life becomes more hopeful for a part of society, but they also have to live with the fear of getting into the crossfire of Batmans battle with the Arkham Inmates, espacially since some of them, like the riddler for example, target innocent people to get Batmans attention.
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