Boss Fights

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Re: Boss Fights

Postby ArthurWynne » Jul 4th, 2015, 9:22 pm

Wow @ this thread. Lots of criticism on AK and lots of praise for that piece of poop Arkham Origins.

I'll take fewer boss battles than having to fight Bane fifteen times (or so it felt).

Also, the Riddler boss fight was amazing IMO.
Other notable AK battles were the Batmobile Vs. AK's Excavator (very epic scenario), and Batman vs. Pyg and his dollotrons.
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby cloakandcowl » Jul 6th, 2015, 1:42 pm

So boss fights aren't as we are used to but they do exist I think. It's just about perspective.

Firefly is enough of a boss fight.
Arkham Knight was good too imo. Was a bit batmobile heavy in some parts but they compensated for it by having the staged Predator mode.
I'd count the entire Parnessa Studios bit as 3 boss fights of different types.
Pyg is a combatty one.
Riddler is various boss fights imo. The races test your pursuit mode driving, he has some combat challenges etc. (I'm not counting random riddles around the city)
I'd count the Penguin weapons caches each as basically staged boss fights(combat mode).
I'd count the Two-face bank-raids as staged boss fights(timed predator mode).
Hush was disappointing tbh but was a surprise when it came up.

The entire game felt like a scarecrow boss fight to me. I thought they handled him perfectly tbh. Hugo was a problem because he was always a disembodied voice but everytime you met Scarecrow awesomeness occurred.

I think the question here is are there enough "events" which provided interesting challenges(Basically a boss fight) or is it that we're upset that the villains didn't get enough screentime?
For me most of the villains have had justice done I think.
I don't need to meet each boss, have an encounter where I have to learn a trick, repeat it three times and then have won.
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby Laederlappen » Jul 6th, 2015, 2:49 pm

reversepolarizer wrote:
ron71 wrote:Speaking of boss fights, Who's brilliant idea was to have a boss fight with deathstroke...IN A TANK!? Also you beat hush or potentialy azrael with ONE punch? smh


I was really hoping the deathstroke battle would transition into a one-on-one fight. His fight was essentially the cloudburst 2.0


That is exactly what I thought would happen when you had finally finished all of those side-missions he commented on, but I got suspicious when the encounter began like a Cloudburst 2, but that milisecond where Deathstroke jumped out I was all "YES! Finally a cool boss fi... oh...Well, off to GCPD with you then... DEEP (Like from the core of Earth deep) sigh..."
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby E.Nigma Show » Jul 6th, 2015, 3:57 pm

Just beat the game 100% yesterday. I was satisfied with the Ridder boss battle. Really the only official boss battle in Knight IMO.
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby BuNKiTZ » Jul 6th, 2015, 5:10 pm

There are virtually no boss fights in this game. At most, I suppose you could consider the Batmobile having three fights: helicopter drone at ACE Chemicals, Cloudburst battle with the Knight, and the Excavator battle with the Knight. Then Batman had... Riddler, and Red Hood.

The Riddler boss fight was actually really fun. Red Hood's was okay, but it could have been so much better. If anything, it should've been a mix of this, and Mister Freeze's boss battle. After all, Jason knows all of Batman's methods, right? It would only make sense that he could adapt to them and make sure Batman can't even touch him or flush him out, etc.

Oh! Deathstroke's boss fight was amazing. Just look at how I did at the... 8:30 mark or so. No, seriously, guys. Watch this, it's a wonderful glitch :oldyella:



---

EDIT: Totally forgot about some of the other "boss fights" Batman had. Pyg's was good. That was pretty good. I suppose the three Jokers can be considered boss fights as well. King's was definitely a boss fight and I enjoyed it a lot.

Rather than a traditional boss fight, they've simply become unique Combat encounters instead. Which is fine, I suppose. I just expected Rocksteady to step up their game and take some notes from Montreal--I guess they did, though... making the fights unique battles instead like Copperhead's. Big shame that that's what they all were, though. Aside from the Batmobile ones.

Still, they should've at least given us a variant of the Deathstroke boss battle rather than giving us Cloudburst 2.0. At least this way, it'll be a fight that wasn't already in this particular game.
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby Calzones » Jul 6th, 2015, 5:52 pm

Bunkitz, that glitch is amazing... :lol:
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby E.Nigma Show » Jul 6th, 2015, 6:55 pm

BuNKiTZ wrote:There are virtually no boss fights in this game. At most, I suppose you could consider the Batmobile having three fights: helicopter drone at ACE Chemicals, Cloudburst battle with the Knight, and the Excavator battle with the Knight. Then Batman had... Riddler, and Red Hood.

The Riddler boss fight was actually really fun. Red Hood's was okay, but it could have been so much better. If anything, it should've been a mix of this, and Mister Freeze's boss battle. After all, Jason knows all of Batman's methods, right? It would only make sense that he could adapt to them and make sure Batman can't even touch him or flush him out, etc.

Oh! Deathstroke's boss fight was amazing. Just look at how I did at the... 8:30 mark or so. No, seriously, guys. Watch this, it's a wonderful glitch :oldyella:



---

EDIT: Totally forgot about some of the other "boss fights" Batman had. Pyg's was good. That was pretty good. I suppose the three Jokers can be considered boss fights as well. King's was definitely a boss fight and I enjoyed it a lot.

Rather than a traditional boss fight, they've simply become unique Combat encounters instead. Which is fine, I suppose. I just expected Rocksteady to step up their game and take some notes from Montreal--I guess they did, though... making the fights unique battles instead like Copperhead's. Big shame that that's what they all were, though. Aside from the Batmobile ones.

Still, they should've at least given us a variant of the Deathstroke boss battle rather than giving us Cloudburst 2.0. At least this way, it'll be a fight that wasn't already in this particular game.



LOL! Dude, that is hilarious. Was that your first time fighting him? If so, what a bummer lol.

I beat him so easily, I literally went round and round one skinny builidng taking shots at him. May have been cheap, but whatever, it was a ridiculous battle anyway. When he jumped out of the tank I fully exptected hand to hand. So sad RS....
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby Jack out of Box » Jul 6th, 2015, 10:44 pm

For me a great boss fight includes the following:

- A villain outfitted with a variety of attacks that require different methods to avoid
- variety of approaches to take out the villain (not too much repetition)
- A twist on the gameplay that we have gotten used to or testing what we have learned
- having the fight become more complex over time or have it change either location/ dynamics/ method of approach
-showcase what makes the Boss unique or what abilities they possess

Arkham Knight missed a huge opportunity to test these new gameplay elements.
Gadgets while gliding
Steal/use weapons
hacking tool
synthesizer


Each Batman villain has the potential to fit into both combat or predator modes but I feel the worst boss fights in the series are the ones requiring repetitive quickfire gadget spamming.
My favorite Boss battle is Clayface. Although we have to fight him using the same freeze grenade attack, it shows off much of his shape shifting abilities and requires a lot of dodging and movement. the fight then transitions to fighting some claymen with a sword!

The freeze fight in arkham city was cool( :freeze: ) at first but after it just becomes a laundry list of takedowns.

Here are my thoughts on how the Arkham Knight villains could have had better boss fights if any. As for Pyg, Blackfire, Riddler and Arkham Knight, I think they are adequate as they are

1. Deathstroke
-Deathstroke has the most potential in either combat (1-on-1/group) or predator modes.
-Deathstroke can be outfitted with his sword, staff, pistols, sniper, grenades and even the remote claw.
-the destroy weapon move that batman has could wear down the durability of deathstrokes weapons until they are no longer usable. the steal weapon move could even have batman taking the more non-lethal weapons and using them on deathstroke.
-deathstroke can have multi-counter moves and even adapt if the player uses the same moves too much. for instance, if batman uses beatdowns too much then deathstroke will counter
-ability to deflect gadgets back at batman.

-For predator gameplay have him able to use vantage points and travel in grates
-have him move around the environment commanding thugs
-the remote claw can string batman up just like in the origins cinematic where batman has to deflect his sword blows

2.Firefly
- Ariel fight utilizing gadgets while gliding
-Fire should play a large role where it can compromise the environment or provide a hazard.
-Smoke can come into play. batman can't enter large smoke clouds but firefly is not able to see through them. detective mode can however.
-hostages could be present in a burning building where batman must avoid firefly
-hacking tool can affect fireflys jetpack making him vulnerable.

3.Man bat
Man-bat would work best with a two stage boss battle.

-Batman investigates kirks lab where Man-bat has made his lair.
-Man-bat attacks and batman must escape without being detected. fear toxin can come into play, fear of bats etc.
-Detective mode alerts Man-bat to batmans presence
-synthesizer can distract Man-bat
-players must avoid objects in environment ( stack of books, puddle of water etc.)
-the battle can then take to the skies where the objective is to ground man-bat then take him down
-Batman could still chase down Man-bat in the air but have him able to attack back.
-Man-Bat can grab a rioter and carry them away. if dropped, then batman can dive after them and use the batclaw to save them.
-freeze grenades can slow man bat down and REC can lower his altitude.
-Once grounded, Man-bat attacks in a feral but clumsy manner with unique attacks

4. Scarecrow
As much as I'm okay with how he was handled I still think some fear sequences would have had a tremendously positive effect on his inclusion in the game.

Just like the blood of the demon was able to make Batman Hallucinate in the Battle against Ra's in Arkham City. Scarecrows toxin could provide a combat fight where batman could face multiple foes of which one is actually scarecrow.

-After being exposed to some toxin batman must fight his fears.
-Joker, talia and other apparitions attack and taunt batman
-if batman counters then the counter icon morphs into another apparation cauing batman to take a more aggressive approach,
-every now and then Crane will appear and if he is not countered he will give batman another dose which causes things to become more chaotic.
-the level could crumble in certain parts or the floor could be electrified. gadgets could backfire in certain ways such as the REC giving an enemy and electric armor

These are just a few of my ideas
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby E.Nigma Show » Jul 6th, 2015, 11:28 pm

@ Jack out of box

Great ideas man. I had some similar ideas as well, especially when it came the Man-Bat and gadgets while gliding. Didn't everyone think this would be the case???

Anyway, I've come to this decision about the decisions RS made on this game:

Growing up I was a HUGE Star Wars fan. The original trilogy came out when I was a young child growing up. Through the years, through talk and speculation and info that was hinted at, die hard Star Wars fans all got an idea in their head of how the prequel and sequel movies would go (if they were ever made).

Enter the Prequel movies. How do most old school fans feel about them??? They hate them. WIth a passion. After all these years, I have come to appreciate what they are. Made by George Lucas. It was his decision and his story to tell the way he wanted to by implementing ideas, CGI, etc to make his vision come to life.

The same is true here. It was Rocksteady's story to tell and implement the way the felt was best.

While i enjoy Knight WAAAAAY more than the Star Wars prequel movies, the same holds true. After waiting nearly 4 years for Knight, I had certain ideas and expectations of how things should or would go. When those were not met, I was disappointed.

I still love Knight, but I'm at the point now where I appreciate it for what it is-even if RS did miss some golden opportunities to really make the best Batman game ever.
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby BuNKiTZ » Jul 7th, 2015, 3:37 am

Jack out of Box wrote:For me a great boss fight includes the following:

- A villain outfitted with a variety of attacks that require different methods to avoid
- variety of approaches to take out the villain (not too much repetition)
- A twist on the gameplay that we have gotten used to or testing what we have learned
- having the fight become more complex over time or have it change either location/ dynamics/ method of approach
-showcase what makes the Boss unique or what abilities they possess

Arkham Knight missed a huge opportunity to test these new gameplay elements.
Gadgets while gliding
Steal/use weapons
hacking tool
synthesizer


Each Batman villain has the potential to fit into both combat or predator modes but I feel the worst boss fights in the series are the ones requiring repetitive quickfire gadget spamming.
My favorite Boss battle is Clayface. Although we have to fight him using the same freeze grenade attack, it shows off much of his shape shifting abilities and requires a lot of dodging and movement. the fight then transitions to fighting some claymen with a sword!

The freeze fight in arkham city was cool( :freeze: ) at first but after it just becomes a laundry list of takedowns.

Here are my thoughts on how the Arkham Knight villains could have had better boss fights if any. As for Pyg, Blackfire, Riddler and Arkham Knight, I think they are adequate as they are

1. Deathstroke
-Deathstroke has the most potential in either combat (1-on-1/group) or predator modes.
-Deathstroke can be outfitted with his sword, staff, pistols, sniper, grenades and even the remote claw.
-the destroy weapon move that batman has could wear down the durability of deathstrokes weapons until they are no longer usable. the steal weapon move could even have batman taking the more non-lethal weapons and using them on deathstroke.
-deathstroke can have multi-counter moves and even adapt if the player uses the same moves too much. for instance, if batman uses beatdowns too much then deathstroke will counter
-ability to deflect gadgets back at batman.

-For predator gameplay have him able to use vantage points and travel in grates
-have him move around the environment commanding thugs
-the remote claw can string batman up just like in the origins cinematic where batman has to deflect his sword blows

2.Firefly
- Ariel fight utilizing gadgets while gliding
-Fire should play a large role where it can compromise the environment or provide a hazard.
-Smoke can come into play. batman can't enter large smoke clouds but firefly is not able to see through them. detective mode can however.
-hostages could be present in a burning building where batman must avoid firefly
-hacking tool can affect fireflys jetpack making him vulnerable.

3.Man bat
Man-bat would work best with a two stage boss battle.

-Batman investigates kirks lab where Man-bat has made his lair.
-Man-bat attacks and batman must escape without being detected. fear toxin can come into play, fear of bats etc.
-Detective mode alerts Man-bat to batmans presence
-synthesizer can distract Man-bat
-players must avoid objects in environment ( stack of books, puddle of water etc.)
-the battle can then take to the skies where the objective is to ground man-bat then take him down
-Batman could still chase down Man-bat in the air but have him able to attack back.
-Man-Bat can grab a rioter and carry them away. if dropped, then batman can dive after them and use the batclaw to save them.
-freeze grenades can slow man bat down and REC can lower his altitude.
-Once grounded, Man-bat attacks in a feral but clumsy manner with unique attacks

4. Scarecrow
As much as I'm okay with how he was handled I still think some fear sequences would have had a tremendously positive effect on his inclusion in the game.

Just like the blood of the demon was able to make Batman Hallucinate in the Battle against Ra's in Arkham City. Scarecrows toxin could provide a combat fight where batman could face multiple foes of which one is actually scarecrow.

-After being exposed to some toxin batman must fight his fears.
-Joker, talia and other apparitions attack and taunt batman
-if batman counters then the counter icon morphs into another apparation cauing batman to take a more aggressive approach,
-every now and then Crane will appear and if he is not countered he will give batman another dose which causes things to become more chaotic.
-the level could crumble in certain parts or the floor could be electrified. gadgets could backfire in certain ways such as the REC giving an enemy and electric armor

These are just a few of my ideas

Great ideas, man! I especially love the ones you have for Deathstroke. Your Man-Bat idea is similar to a discussion batman404 and I made a long time ago somewhere in the forum. Shame I can't find it :P

And if you've got some more ideas, please enlighten us. I'd love to read more of them! :alfred:
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby Logic » Jul 7th, 2015, 5:34 pm

Totally agree with the OP. This really should have been called "Batmobile: The Game." The likelihood of the matter is that so much resources were poured into this mechanic that there were sacrifices needed to be made in order to get the game out without yet another delay. Personally I had a blast with the Batmobile, but it would have been better served if it was used more sparingly. Most certainly not in place of the bosses and also used as filler for sidequests as well. Had there been actual boss fights this might truly be the high note in the series that Rocksteady intended to go out on.

Tank battles are fun and all, but again, what's a Batman game without bossesImage
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby Red_Hood » Jul 7th, 2015, 9:12 pm

So, umm I guess I am in the minority and I don't agree with most of you. I don't feel like a lack of boss battles is a bad thing in the game. I would rather have barely any, instead of boss battles that are terrible and not original. Also, I don't even know why people say Joker is the main villain.. Yeah he is in the game and you have a "boss battle" with your mind with the Joker, but he is still not the main villain. Scarecrow and Arkham Knight are.

Also, yeah Rocksteady doesn't have challenge maps, but I don't find it that big of a problem. :oldyella:
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby reversepolarizer » Jul 9th, 2015, 1:22 pm

Red_Hood wrote:So, umm I guess I am in the minority and I don't agree with most of you. I don't feel like a lack of boss battles is a bad thing in the game. I would rather have barely any, instead of boss battles that are terrible and not original. Also, I don't even know why people say Joker is the main villain.. Yeah he is in the game and you have a "boss battle" with your mind with the Joker, but he is still not the main villain. Scarecrow and Arkham Knight are.

Also, yeah Rocksteady doesn't have challenge maps, but I don't find it that big of a problem. :oldyella:


It's not just actual "battles" as much as villain encounters. I found nearly all of the villain encounters fairly lackluster. Deathstroke should have been left out with the shoddy treatment he received. Most of the other villains weren't used in clever, interesting or even memorable ways. Scarecrow was turned into Strange 2.0 (albeit a bit more hands on). I'd agree that Joker isn't necessarily the main villain but he get's the most screen time and is easily the most memorable part of the game. Not to mention a large part of the plot revolving around the Joker infected. Also, we did get terrible and unoriginal battles in the tank sections of the game. Deathstroke was literally the cloudburst with very minor changes. The excavator kind of painted Jason as an idiot (or we were supposed to believe completely blinded by rage?). At least combat and predator rooms provided us with different gameplay options, the tank sequences all played out exactly the same.

To be more specific, consider the Penguin in AC vs AK. In AK we take him down in a cut scene, in AC we get a beatdown after we deal with his museum, Mr. Sickle, and Grundy. After all he put us through it was cathartic. In AK, we got a lackluster sidemission that was literally the same thing everytime we did it, only for it to end with cutscene. That to me is a letdown. I don't need a crazy elaborate boss fight, just a build up to a satisfying finish. AK was quite lacking in this.
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby E.Nigma Show » Jul 9th, 2015, 1:43 pm

reversepolarizer wrote:
Red_Hood wrote:So, umm I guess I am in the minority and I don't agree with most of you. I don't feel like a lack of boss battles is a bad thing in the game. I would rather have barely any, instead of boss battles that are terrible and not original. Also, I don't even know why people say Joker is the main villain.. Yeah he is in the game and you have a "boss battle" with your mind with the Joker, but he is still not the main villain. Scarecrow and Arkham Knight are.

Also, yeah Rocksteady doesn't have challenge maps, but I don't find it that big of a problem. :oldyella:


It's not just actual "battles" as much as villain encounters. I found nearly all of the villain encounters fairly lackluster. Deathstroke should have been left out with the shoddy treatment he received. Most of the other villains weren't used in clever, interesting or even memorable ways. Scarecrow was turned into Strange 2.0 (albeit a bit more hands on). I'd agree that Joker isn't necessarily the main villain but he get's the most screen time and is easily the most memorable part of the game. Not to mention a large part of the plot revolving around the Joker infected. Also, we did get terrible and unoriginal battles in the tank sections of the game. Deathstroke was literally the cloudburst with very minor changes. The excavator kind of painted Jason as an idiot (or we were supposed to believe completely blinded by rage?). At least combat and predator rooms provided us with different gameplay options, the tank sequences all played out exactly the same.

To be more specific, consider the Penguin in AC vs AK. In AK we take him down in a cut scene, in AC we get a beatdown after we deal with his museum, Mr. Sickle, and Grundy. After all he put us through it was cathartic. In AK, we got a lackluster sidemission that was literally the same thing everytime we did it, only for it to end with cutscene. That to me is a letdown. I don't need a crazy elaborate boss fight, just a build up to a satisfying finish. AK was quite lacking in this.


Um, just about every side quest was rinse and repeat when you think about it.
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Re: Boss Fights

Postby Jack out of Box » Jul 10th, 2015, 12:39 am

The new Batgirl DLC supposedly has a dualplay battle with Batgirl and robin versus the joker and Harley.
This is a fantastic idea nad makes me wonder how many other Arkham villains would make perfect team up boss battles.

Some personal Villain Team ups I'd love to see are:
-Two-Face and Penguin
-Arkham Knight and Deathstroke
-Hush and Clayface
-Riddler and Either Cluemaster or Mad Hatter

Riddler has been handling the side mission stuff single-handedly for too long I feel and could use a helping hand. Mad hatter would be perfect in providing some physically paradoxical challenges that Riddler designs.

Some other ideas I had concerning Arkham Knights Rogue gallery

Two-Face
-utilize the coin.
-combat and predator levels could have multiple environmental hazards which Two-Face controls. think electrical floors, turrets, hostages hooked up to timer bombs, toxic gas that fills up a certain level. All of which Harvey flips a coin for while narrating the outcome. Batman must then address the issue that arises should the coin land unfavorably.
-scale of justice combat structured level

-team up with Penguin could involve Penguin choosing different umbrella weapons which Harvey flips a coin for.

Hush
-Hush is a much better villain in my opinion when he is Aware that Bruce is Batman and concocts elaborate schemes to screw with Batman and make him suffer.
-Hush used Clayface in the comics concerning Jason's identity to mess with Batman and I can't imagine why Rocksteady passed up the opportunity to give it their own unique spin

-Hush should be tied to a lot of detective sequences where Batman is hunting down Elliot. Multiple clues and evidence should be available leading us to different conclusions many of which are red herrings. each line of clues should lead to us chasing down a masked figure who turns out to be a false lead hired by Hush until we find Elliot ourselves.

Clayface
-Has extraordinary Narrative potential honestly. Can be used as a plot device, complement another villain scheme etc. I feel he is best used in a group combat sequence or one-on-one boss battle. Predator doesn't seem intuitively appropriate

Different claymen: the idea is to have a group of enemies that reacts differently to batman's attacks and is and is constantly changing as a result

1. Layered. these claymen start off the size of Brutes but are unaffected by beat downs. if batman does and ariel attack he becomes engulfed and must break free with punches. Layered claymen can become hardened with the REC or freeze grenande which makes them susceptible to beat downs which break off layers until they are defeated

2. Thug Claymen. act much like simple thugs. absorb explosive gel. either reform after blowing up or break into a smaller enemy type

3.Morphers. able to alter arms into various weapon types or change as a result of batman's gadget attacks.

4. Combiners. smaller enemy type that can combine to form a larger type or are created from the explosion on a larger one.

Killer Croc
Here we have an enemy that requires a great environment. Croc is a giant threat up close so it seems natural to involve a mechanics that centers around avoiding him whilst being hunted or keeping him at a distance
-We've seen from Arkham Asylum that there needs to be a balance with being hunted and having some kind of engagement with him or else it's too boring or not thrilling enough.

-My idea is to have a Boss battle where the tables turn eventually.

-Ideal location is a sewer Labyrinth. possibly entered while Batman is looking for Blackfire and his Cult.
-Croc can be a dynamic entity that reacts to sound, smell, tacks left by batman and vibrations
-Different elements in the environment can either Alert Cros, distract him temporarily, slow him down or conceal both batman and Croc.

-The goal could be to escape Croc with some segments requiring us brave close-encounters or traverse areas that expose us.


-eventually we could find an old shock collar or some device to incapacitate Croc which we must now attempt to attach to him.

-A stage combat idea is a floating platform consisting of four separate parts. Croc could have attacks that affect the stability of one of the four platforms requiring players to manage their position while dodging fierce attacks.
-Croc can enter the water underneath where he can flip a platform, attempt to grab us or emerge.
-If grabbed, Batman must break free from a death roll with Croc.

I'm not sure on how batman could take him down eventually but perhaps it could involve placing and arming the collar in a QTE or some such thing.
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