What Hype has done

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What Hype has done

Postby TheDoctorofDCnU » Jul 21st, 2015, 4:40 pm

These are my thoughts on a number of things I have read in forums, in professional game reviews and on podcasts about this game. Numerous people are saying the AK is mediocre or have a seething hate for the game. Some of it is justified. Like the fact that the PC version was a broken mess and won't be re-released till the Fall. However, I believe that there may be another culprit to all of this.

I believe a lot of people are suffering from being HYPED for the game. I'm not talking about excited for the game. I'm talking about getting so excited for the game that you go those next rungs higher. You start building up what the game will be and stating that the game will be/have X. Then the game comes out, is nothing like what was built up in ones mind and leaves more than disappointment. For example, you can read on this very site, the things stated about the Batcave in AC. When we found out it was coming, everyone was speculating that it was going to be story content. That it was going to be this story or that story. Possibly following Robin or Nightwing, going into what they have been up to during the game events. I'll admit that I too was hyped up for it. Then it was revealed to be a Predator map and then people started playing it. The vile about it was nuts, and not just here but all over the internet. It looks thrown together, it doesn't have this, it's to small and so on and so on. I willl also admit that I too was like that. It took longer than I am proud of to break from that and re-examine it.

And that's what I believe happened here. RS only gave out the smallest tid bits of news about the game. A game image here or there, tid bits about the plot and the saying the Arkham Knight was a completely original character. Then it happened... that next rung was reached and everyone hit hype. Speculating on; who the Knight was, how big the game will be, what they story will be. Then the game came out, and reviews started coming in saying how disappointed they were. That it's lack luster and not up to the bar AC set. And you know what? That's perfectly alright.

Personally I think that it's ok to feel this way, expecially after being hyped up. RS and Warners marketing can be held as the blame for that one. But, what I will say is that if you were hyped, put AK down and play a few different titles. Then after these feelings have passed (it'll differ for everyone) pick it up again and see if the problems you have with it are the same. I will not sit here and say that there aren't some problems with the game. A little bit ago I posted a thread about minor gripes I have after all. However, see if the problems you have now, are the same later after having come back to the game. I had to do that a few different times, with a number of different games. The Batcave Predator map is an example of that. I went back to it a full year (I believe) after my initial reaction, and found that the problems I had didn't seem as prevalent as they were before. Sure I still have problems with it, but they aren't as bad as my first blush with it.

It has been only about a month since the games release. We should all take a deep breath, count to ten, and then re-examine the game. RS said that this is their last Batman game, and how true that is remains to be seen in my opinion (especially with the ending after the Knightfall Initiative). I think they (RS) were trying to send out a love letter to their fans and the franchise. Sure there are problems with the game, like a broken PC release for example or that Arkham Knight wasn't an original character, but it does have its fair share of good qualities to balance things out. Again, feel the way you feel. Get it out and continue to talk with fellow fans about it. Because when the dust settles and our emotions have ceded, what its overall good and bad about the game will be left standing for us to see.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Whether you agree or disagree with me, I think that it's good to have discussions about, not just this, but on what matters to you. Just because opinions differ, it doesn't mean we can't talk about it. :adam:
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Re: What Hype has done

Postby SilentGuardian » Jul 21st, 2015, 5:42 pm

Fantastic article. I think the biggest problem people are having is that the story they told was the one RS wanted to tell. They wanted Jason Todd because they love Jason Todd. They wanted to incorporate Joker yet again. They wanted to explore Batz and Joker's bizarre relationship. They wanted the batmobile front and center. They made the game they wanted to make because they're just as big fans of Batman as we are. I will always look at their trilogy as one of the greatest tellings and explorations of Batman and Joker, ever, because no matter who they get to write them, they stay true to both the Batman and Joker. The rest of it? It might not be perfect, but Arkham Knight will be my favorite game. I have major gripes yeah, I wanted a batcave, more dual play, CHALLENGE MAPS, and actual boss battles, better side missions (man bat was so mediocre) but the experience of the game was and is the same as the last 3 Arkham games. I didn't get everything I wanted and a few things really let me down, but I have really enjoyed this game. I like to think it's incomplete, because I'm pretty sure in the season pass it said we'd be getting challenge maps. Still doesn't change the fact that they should have came with the game in the first place. That's my take.....
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Re: What Hype has done

Postby BatKnight » Jul 21st, 2015, 9:12 pm

I feel the need to share my experience in this regard:

I really enjoyed these forums. I like learning of all these hidden treasures and speculating with fellow fans. When AO was coming out, I feasted on the information from these forums, and felt a tad bit let down because, I felt, I had learned too much about the game before I played it.

When I saw the trailer for AK, I flipped out, but also came to the conclusion that I didn't want to be my own downfall. I "unliked" the Facebook page for the Arkham games and stayed away from this site like a champ (and honestly, that was pretty hard to do.) I wanted to pick everything apart. Over-analyze and talk about it endlessly, but I stuck to my initial plan.

I remember hearing the batmobile had a "battle mode," but I refused to watch the trailers. I saw a glimpse of Firefly from one trailer and I wanted to kick myself. I wanted to know nothing so that I could experience it with an open mind.

And then I played.

And I don't think it was the hype.

That's mostly because I feel this disappointment too. I feel like I got the villains I personally wanted- Riddler (duh), Scarecrow, Jason Todd, Hush, Man-Bat, and Professor Pyg, but I felt they weren't fashioned together. In this regard, I feel spoiled, because I know they brought them in here because they knew fans wanted these villains that may not have even been referenced in the other games, yet I feel like it brought a disconnect. In A/C you interacted with Penguin, Cat-Woman, Two-Face, The Joker, Harley Quinn, and Hugo Strange from the get-go and the pressure was ON! I remember right after the Church, I heard a phone ring (a really cool concept) and I answered- woah! Right in the middle of me fighting and trying to keep others alive, Zasz throws another wrench in the gears.

I see a lot of opions of the game I had being voiced by others as well. I think that's more than coincidence. I don't think it's the hype. It was just the implementation.

I know of Jason's background, and I understand they wanted to keep it a mystery for fans, but I sniffed it out after that "old man" comment near the beginning of the game. I heard that was even used in the promo stuff too. If they wanted to use Jason, have us be aware of who he is, but Batman will have to catchup. Heck, even reveal his identity at the beginning and Batman has to cope with him or believe him to be an image by the fear toxins. Though we know it, it'd be interesting to see how Batman comes to terms with his failings.

I can only hope there is a sequel to this to redeem it, because it does ask for redemption.
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Re: What Hype has done

Postby TheDoctorofDCnU » Jul 22nd, 2015, 3:26 pm

BatKnight wrote:I feel the need to share my experience in this regard:

I really enjoyed these forums. I like learning of all these hidden treasures and speculating with fellow fans. When AO was coming out, I feasted on the information from these forums, and felt a tad bit let down because, I felt, I had learned too much about the game before I played it.

When I saw the trailer for AK, I flipped out, but also came to the conclusion that I didn't want to be my own downfall. I "unliked" the Facebook page for the Arkham games and stayed away from this site like a champ (and honestly, that was pretty hard to do.) I wanted to pick everything apart. Over-analyze and talk about it endlessly, but I stuck to my initial plan.

I remember hearing the batmobile had a "battle mode," but I refused to watch the trailers. I saw a glimpse of Firefly from one trailer and I wanted to kick myself. I wanted to know nothing so that I could experience it with an open mind.

And then I played.

And I don't think it was the hype.

That's mostly because I feel this disappointment too. I feel like I got the villains I personally wanted- Riddler (duh), Scarecrow, Jason Todd, Hush, Man-Bat, and Professor Pyg, but I felt they weren't fashioned together. In this regard, I feel spoiled, because I know they brought them in here because they knew fans wanted these villains that may not have even been referenced in the other games, yet I feel like it brought a disconnect. In A/C you interacted with Penguin, Cat-Woman, Two-Face, The Joker, Harley Quinn, and Hugo Strange from the get-go and the pressure was ON! I remember right after the Church, I heard a phone ring (a really cool concept) and I answered- woah! Right in the middle of me fighting and trying to keep others alive, Zasz throws another wrench in the gears.

I see a lot of opions of the game I had being voiced by others as well. I think that's more than coincidence. I don't think it's the hype. It was just the implementation.

I know of Jason's background, and I understand they wanted to keep it a mystery for fans, but I sniffed it out after that "old man" comment near the beginning of the game. I heard that was even used in the promo stuff too. If they wanted to use Jason, have us be aware of who he is, but Batman will have to catchup. Heck, even reveal his identity at the beginning and Batman has to cope with him or believe him to be an image by the fear toxins. Though we know it, it'd be interesting to see how Batman comes to terms with his failings.

I can only hope there is a sequel to this to redeem it, because it does ask for redemption.



Well said. This is very well thought out and put together. I agree that it probably wasn't hype for you. You managed to stay away from anything regarding AK, so you could have no expectations and fresh eyes. I can see what you mean about bosses. There were fourteen bosses in the game. Half were intergrated into the story and half were optional. AK did have mostly optional bosses, though if you wanted to 100% the game they became "non-optional." That's because if you wanted the [u]final[/] ending to AK you had to activate the Knightfall Initiative. But not everyone wants to 100% complete a game and after the final boss encounter the story was pretty much done.

I am with you, I knew it was Todd from that very second. Then when at ACE he told his men where to aim on the Batsuit, it was the dead give away. The only people who would be clueless to how Arkham Knight knew that, would be people who have only played the games/seen movies. Because they wouldn't know Jason Todd.

I know there are some rumors going around that WB Montreal is going to be starting work on the next Arkham game, but there has been no word on how true that is. Personally I have no doubts that they are. WB know now that Batman games will make money, so they won't let the fact that Rocksteady has said this is their last, stop them. And as long as WBM take into account the feedback that players have said about Origins and Knight, it'll be great.
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Re: What Hype has done

Postby JKujo » Jul 22nd, 2015, 8:23 pm

I tried so hard to stay away from reading all of the hype. I was glad that Rocksteady didn't over market the game with trailers and news every other day. It did keep the game fresh in my mind.
I didn't mind that Jason Todd turned into the Arkham Knight. In fact, it made a lot of sense. Even though we all speculated that this would turn into Jason being the identity of the AK. Even though there were many hints to the true identity, I really didn't know who it was until he revealed himself near the end of the game. Sorry, I haven't read the Batman novels. I am sure they are great but it just isn't something I like to do. I think that helped keep the story fresh and new for me. Not knowing every single detail of the Batman legacy helped that. It would have been better had the Arkham Knight been a character we’ve seen before in the Arkhamverse because that would have made it a little more tragic, but that’s okay… just my humble opinion.
I really enjoyed this game. I had fun playing it and felt that it had a lot of new ideas. I liked the bigger world we got to play in. I enjoyed coming across Easter Eggs. Having Man-Bat scare the hell out of.me. I felt that they made adequate references to the previous Arkham Games. I was especially pleased that they incorporated elements of Arkham Origins with the Evidence Room, Firefly, and Detective Story Replaying. I know I am in the minority here but I loved AO for what it was. For as much crap as AO gets from a part of this community it was satisfying to see. I liked that RS basically showed that WBM had some really great ideas and they should be applauded for them.
With that said here are many ways they could have taken this game to the next level:

1. They had too many villains with loose ends that didn't receive closure..

a.) Too many villains from AC were MIA. I consider AC as the gold standard of Video Game sequels. For too many key villains, their stories were just swept away and barely referenced, almost like they didn't matter. Let me be clear, it wasn't that they all needed their own side mission. No, but would have killed the story if at least some of them were incorporated into it in some way? I loved the lines from Scarecrow and the AK, that part of their plan was to spread Batman so thin that he would get overwhelmed. I waited and waited (and am still waiting) for that to happen.

b.) Surely they could have brought in Mad Hatter, Clayface, Freeze, Bane, Zsazz, and Killer Croc. The last two especially! I was very disappointed that one of the best parts of the 1st game was facing Croc and they never revisited him at all for the rematch we were all hoping for. Too many of these important parts of the Arkhamverse were given similar ends: "No One knows what happened to <fill in the blank character>". Even if you didn't incorporate the ones I mention and just a few of them, that would have made a huge difference in the richness of your story.

c.) You had two games of dealing with Quincy Sharp and his ineptitude. Where the heck was he? Not even a cameo?! WTF! Wouldn't it have been great to have him in the game where you had to get/give help for some reason even though that made swallowing a knife more appealing than to do so?

d.) Calendar Man... My god such potential for him to play a role. Nope, he’s MIA.

e.) What about Clayface being Oracle during her fake death scene? The hallucination was a cop-out reason for her surviving.

2. The idea of Batman and his allies being stretched to their breaking point was a great concept! You have this great rogues gallery established. Use it! When the story took us underground, who here thought, well now we're getting somewhere! When is Killer Croc going to pop out? That was the part of AA that none of the Arkham games have ever been able to duplicate.

I can't tell you how many times in AA, I walked through the halls of the Asylum with my Batarang Locked, cocked and ready to rock in anticipation of a baddie or someone coming around the corner, cause I had no idea what to expect next. Not so much with any of the last 3 games. You never really had that eerie feeling in any of the subsequent games. Except maybe briefly in AO at the end of Blackgate.

3. Location mismanagement. One of the most endearing things about AA and to a much lesser extent AC was that you had to return to different locations more than once in order to advance the story of the game. Each time something new or different was happening that required new ways to complete the given mission. It made you start to like/hate having to go back to a location but not because you were bored but because you didn’t know what that differences were and didn't know what to expect. For example, in AA when Poison Ivy tells us to go back to Croc’s lair I cringed because I didn’t want to have to go down there again.

Except for the Studios and the Orphanage, when did you have to return to a location and have new problems to solve? Did we ever have to use a site twice for a Predator Challenge? AO did this a lot too, too many locations were one and done. MIA were the Batcave, AC, AA, and god forbid we have to slog through the GCPD because all of those baddies we've collected have taken over the place, a la, Blackgate Prison. That would have been really interesting. Why don’t we have to do a predator challenge at the same room/location more than once? Where the henchmen take one of the techniques we use too much away (like gargoyle bombs, sure they weren't too annoying but it sure made you change your tactics).
How about when we get back to Panessa Studios, Harley has redecorated the place and made it harder and more frightening. I thought when they mentioned that one of the studios was a horror film set that surely we would get not only one of the Joker guys but one of the top villains or some kind of psychological fear test. I thought the Johnny Charisma part was well done though. The western stage was almost an afterthought and it showed. What a waste. At least there could have been a better fight. Why not have one of the bad guys hold you down where you can't counter out of it easily but need to before the boxer gets you? The boxer was so much an afterthought I can't even remember his name because there was no reason why I should care to remember him.

4. The Al-Ghuls. Where in the world were they? I honestly thought for over half the game that Talia was the Arkham Knight. In-fact the character profile map (unless you do the scan of the Bat-girl suit early) had a space alphabetically open for Talia and Ras to show up. It would make sense that they would be there somehow.

5. Titan: Titan was the main reason for this entire Arkhamverse, yet it played almost no part of the finale except for a spot in the evidence room. Wouldn't it have made more sense that part of the cloudburst was that Stagg discovered how to manufacture Titan again but in an aerosol form and it had the horrific, terrible, unknown effects on people not only as a fear toxin but also as a Monster creating agent that turned Gotham into an absolute Hell on Earth when they deployed it? They did this half way but could have really buried the needle if they took it a step further with Titan.

6. Batmobile. I didn't like it at first but I got used to it. I didn't like the fact that too many missions required it. I was disappointed in the lack of needing Batman to finish more missions. Part of what made the Arkhamverse under RS work so well is they knew how to balance out themes, puzzles, or the need to use a certain gadget in the game. With the addition of the Batmobile you had to use it way too much. It basically made the Line-Launcher completely irrelevant. I get that you needed the car to help move you around the map quicker and with more agility. But why did we have to use it for every boss fight? You needed it for the Arkham Knight on at least 4 parts of the game as the boss battle with him. Where was the combat finale or a better Predator finale?

One way you could do a combat finale with the Arkham Knight could have been where you had to use the best skills and timing physically to finally get him to yield and then remove his mask at the end! It could have been AO Deathstroke 2.0. I'm thinking like when you have to face Mike Tyson at the end of MTPO where if you make a mistake it really takes you down and quickly. They did that a bit with the last tank battle with AK but a hand to hand one would have been sweet.

How about with Predator instead of the AK sitting there with a sniper rifle you had to be in absolute stealth mode. Where even the slightest non-silent takedown would result in real pain. What about if he actually moved around to get you, a la Deadshot but much faster and he’s much smarter. Where he could use all of the gadgets (i.e. Scanner, Jammer, Sniper Rifle, Chain Gun, etc) to pose a real threatening challenge. What if he could move from Gargoyle to Gargoyle? That is one thing that the Bane fight in AO had, you had to move and move quickly or he was going to sneak up on you and you couldn’t just hide on a gargoyle all night. I was hoping for a new Freeze like finale where you have to use everything in the silent takedown arsenal because its been in 4 games and this is the finale, for the ultimate final exam. That would have been sweet and the building blocks from AC and AO were already there for you. Again, another wasted opportunity.

7. Lack of HELL YEAH MOMENTS. Finally defeating the AK should have been a moment where you want to do a fist pumping shout of, OH HELL YEAH! FINALLY! This game had very few of those. I was hoping that when you finally take the AK down that you get that satisfaction. Same thing with the Riddler, why can't we have that moment were we just give him the mother of all beat downs where he basically is a cripple as we lock him away. I'm thinking like Shawshank type crippling. This is the last game right? I really think we should have had that type of satisfaction with Harley, Two-Face, and Penguin. All should have had those kinds of moments. Again, so much wasted potential here.

8. Joker: It was great how they incorporated him into the game. It was nothing like what I was expecting. It did make sense though as to why they had these other characters like Johnny Charisma, etc. The key was, he wasn't the real villain. I felt it was a magnificent way to end this story of the Joker. Having this all end where it began was great. I just thought they could have added more depth to it. Why couldn't we end up at the Asylum and do the very familiar walk through of some of the key parts of that game such as the some of the buildings and locations. Show some of the things that were there at the beginning that didn't make a lot of sense but tied everything together. I was hoping for more clarity made of the message made on the floor where we last left Quincy Sharp in the asylum. Or explain what the heck happened to that guy with his arm tied behind his back. I was hoping for a return of one of the most annoying characters in the insane psycho inmates (because they were more difficult to defeat). They popped up out of nowhere and scared the bejeezus out of you.

So with that, I will say I enjoy these games. I don’t hate this game. I just think RS wasted the potential that they built and lost their way here. I will continue to play the game and try to master it. The potential is there. This game felt like a bunch of half-baked ideas that weren't completely ripe for the picking. The finale of the Arkhamverse according to Rocksteady should have had more polish on it. They just seem to miss the mark on doing it. I can only hope that WB-MTL can just take the polish of control that was in AC, their story telling capability from AO, the claustrophobia that made AA fun, and a much smaller role of the Batman vehicles… Then you have the ultimate Batman game. The future should be bright.
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Re: What Hype has done

Postby M. Malone » Jul 23rd, 2015, 2:06 pm

I am a PC gamer, therefore I will not get to fully enjoy this game until it is re-released. I have played about 10 hours worth on a friend's console. What I have experienced so far was better than I expected.

I DID stay on the forums and follow the hype train, however I was very critical of the content we were allowed to see. In fact, I made more than a few people upset by my complaining. It is ironic, however, that now the same people who were bashing me for being negative are the ones doing the most complaining now. In contrast, I'm feeling like the game is better than expected. All of the complaints ARE legitimate, I agree, but they aren't as serious as I expected them to be, because I feel the game makes up for so much due to presentation. So, for the majority of people, I DO think that a lot of first impressions depend on the amount of hype beforehand.
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Re: What Hype has done

Postby Harvey Bullock » Jul 23rd, 2015, 5:45 pm

M. Malone wrote: In fact, I made more than a few people upset by my complaining. It is ironic, however, that now the same people who were bashing me for being negative are the ones doing the most complaining now.

Join the club. :oldyella:
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