Shadow War Ending (POLL)

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Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Remote Claw » Dec 23rd, 2015, 1:50 pm

Save Ra's al Ghul?


Side with Nyssa?





I chose to destroy the Lazarus machine. Giving Ra's the cure just felt like a bad idea on so many levels.

Keeping him alive on that machine was a fate worse than death. Same goes for giving him the cure since he'll continue to go down that path of corrupting his mind.

Ra's himself once said those trips to the Pit would frighten him. He'd probably say his crusade is worth it, but that won't do any good should he one day be unable to properly function.

What's your perspective?
Last edited by Remote Claw on Sep 7th, 2016, 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby TheJester » Dec 23rd, 2015, 2:02 pm

Honestly, the multiple choice ending was completely pointless. Especially considering the only real argument for keeping Ra's alive is 'Batman doesn't kill.' Not only that, the ending if you administer the cure is far weaker - Ra's kills Nyssa and disappears in a cloud of smoke. Letting him have a dignified death and having Nyssa take over the League is the most sensible and emotionally driven ending.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Harvey Bullock » Dec 23rd, 2015, 2:10 pm

TheJester wrote:Honestly, the multiple choice ending was completely pointless. Especially considering the only real argument for keeping Ra's alive is 'Batman doesn't kill.' Not only that, the ending if you administer the cure is far weaker - Ra's kills Nyssa and disappears in a cloud of smoke. Letting him have a dignified death and having Nyssa take over the League is the most sensible and emotionally driven ending.

Yep, precisely.

This was one of my key gripes regarding the story content in that it just felt so incredibly pretentious and completely lacked nuance. It fails as a metaphor for assisted dying as Batman destroys the machine out of logic, not out of compassion, and if you choose to save R'as you just further prolong a conflict which should have ended centuries ago. Whilst one ending is more emotionally satisfying (and logical), the other makes no sense whatsoever.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Mani-Man » Dec 23rd, 2015, 2:40 pm

hm, im not sure what to think of the mission.

That they give you multiple choices is a nice idea, but the two choices are not good in the bigger picture.

When you give Ra's the cure, he not only kills Nyssa, but he continues to be the same person he always was.
So you actually sacrifice countless of people he will kill, just to save him.

Destroying the machine is the only logical decision imo.
But the game wants you to paint Batman a murderer for doing so...when he is not.
Batman isnt there to stop every villian and cure them, he simply should do what he can to save a life.
But Ra's life was already over when he stepped into the pit in city and before.
He was bound to die due to his addiction to the Pit.

I dont like multiple choices, when both pretty much paint the same grim picture.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby PriestlyBlock67 » Dec 23rd, 2015, 6:01 pm

ARE YOU GUYS HIGH???

Its always good to have more than one choice

I did both endings on regular and NG+

The game actually makes you question your own morality and what would be an excuse to take a life, and if the end justify the means, stop having a single mind and see the bigger picture, it wasnt an easy choice

It actually made me feel like Batman instead of just watching him being a badass and gave me a taste for what Batman has to go through.

Alfred even tried to give me a little help and advice, it was so Batman simulator 2015.




BTW Batman would choose to not kill, especially Rocksteady's ;)
BTW if Rocksteady made Batman kill Ra's as default everyone would complain and say that they made Batman a killer, in this way, you made the call
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Harvey Bullock » Dec 23rd, 2015, 7:22 pm

PriestlyBlock67 wrote:ARE YOU GUYS HIGH???

Its always good to have more than one choice

I did both endings on regular and NG+

The game actually makes you question your own morality and what would be an excuse to take a life, and if the end justify the means, stop having a single mind and see the bigger picture, it wasnt an easy choice

It actually made me feel like Batman instead of just watching him being a badass and gave me a taste for what Batman has to go through.

Alfred even tried to give me a little help and advice, it was so Batman simulator 2015.




BTW Batman would choose to not kill, especially Rocksteady's ;)
BTW if Rocksteady made Batman kill Ra's as default everyone would complain and say that they made Batman a killer, in this way, you made the call

I was actually taking this post seriously until you started patronising everyone who disagreed with you...

It was a pretentious social-commentary on euthanasia except it lost its validity when the grounds for disabling R'as drip of Lazarus were on logic, not compassion. Batman displays no reverence for R'as (nor should he), but the matter of the question wasn't as morally dubious as you're insinuating it was.

BTW Batman would choose to not kill, especially Rocksteady's ;)

Except he doesn't kill R'as. Rocksteady may not write a nuanced Batman but they wouldn't offer a choice to players that was antithetical to everything the character stands for.

BTW if Rocksteady made Batman kill Ra's as default everyone would complain and say that they made Batman a killer, in this way, you made the call

Then they'd be complaining over nothing - Batman doesn't kill R'as.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby JordanT4021 » Dec 23rd, 2015, 7:42 pm

I think from a players perspective, its a pretty obvious choice. Ra's is an international terrorist who's becoming more and more dangerous each time he is resurrected so he must be stopped. The life of a terrorist is not worth the life of a number of innocent people he would likely kill. This is the option I'd personally go for.
But if you look at it from Batman's perspective things get a lot tougher. By killing Ra's he's breaking his ultimate rule. He's never killed Joker or Penguin or Harley when they've killed hundreds and thousands of people yet he's supposed to kill Ra's for that same reason. And the fact Ra's is at this moment a weak old man makes it tougher because not only is he killing a criminal, he's killing a defenceless person. He's maintained this rule for so long considering everything he's been through and all his work would be undone in a single night. In his eyes, it makes him just as bad as every other criminal he's faced.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Red leader » Dec 23rd, 2015, 7:49 pm

Harvey Bullock wrote:
PriestlyBlock67 wrote:ARE YOU GUYS HIGH???

Its always good to have more than one choice

I did both endings on regular and NG+

The game actually makes you question your own morality and what would be an excuse to take a life, and if the end justify the means, stop having a single mind and see the bigger picture, it wasnt an easy choice

It actually made me feel like Batman instead of just watching him being a badass and gave me a taste for what Batman has to go through.

Alfred even tried to give me a little help and advice, it was so Batman simulator 2015.




BTW Batman would choose to not kill, especially Rocksteady's ;)
BTW if Rocksteady made Batman kill Ra's as default everyone would complain and say that they made Batman a killer, in this way, you made the call

I was actually taking this post seriously until you started patronising everyone who disagreed with you...

It was a pretentious social-commentary on euthanasia except it lost its validity when the grounds for disabling R'as drip of Lazarus were on logic, not compassion. Batman displays no reverence for R'as (nor should he), but the matter of the question wasn't as morally dubious as you're insinuating it was.

BTW Batman would choose to not kill, especially Rocksteady's ;)

Except he doesn't kill R'as. Rocksteady may not write a nuanced Batman but they wouldn't offer a choice to players that was antithetical to everything the character stands for.

BTW if Rocksteady made Batman kill Ra's as default everyone would complain and say that they made Batman a killer, in this way, you made the call

Then they'd be complaining over nothing - Batman doesn't kill R'as.

Agreed. euthanasia is a very serious thing and a should not be written as an afterthought. You could make a fascinating story about it with batman but this is so bare bones.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby JordanT4021 » Dec 23rd, 2015, 8:16 pm

I dont understand how this is connected to Euthanasia. Ra's doesn't want to die, he wants to rise again. Can someone please explain this to me?
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Harvey Bullock » Dec 23rd, 2015, 8:25 pm

JordanT4021 wrote:I dont understand how this is connected to Euthanasia. Ra's doesn't want to die, he wants to rise again. Can someone please explain this to me?

You're under the assumption that he is of sound mind, which he clearly isn't. They state that he's living in pain and he clearly isn't operating in any comfortable life. R'as may not want to 'explicitly' die, but it's implied by Nyssa that he is both mentally unfit to make conscious decisions and is no physical presence either.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Red leader » Dec 23rd, 2015, 8:26 pm

JordanT4021 wrote:I dont understand how this is connected to Euthanasia. Ra's doesn't want to die, he wants to rise again. Can someone please explain this to me?

Nyssa's line about how he is no longer her father but just his injured body is a lot like how people try to justify euthanasia. Its not just about the person wanting to die it can also be if the person is in a coma. Like you said it doesnt line up well which is the problem. It is a lazy way to "tackle" a very complicated issue.

-- Dec 23rd, 2015, 8:29 pm --

JordanT4021 wrote:I dont understand how this is connected to Euthanasia. Ra's doesn't want to die, he wants to rise again. Can someone please explain this to me?

Nyssa's line about how he is no longer her father but just his injured body is a lot like how people try to justify euthanasia. Its not just about the person wanting to die it can also be if the person is in a coma. Like you said it doesnt line up well which is the problem. It is a lazy way to "tackle" a very complicated issue.

-- Dec 23rd, 2015, 8:29 pm --

Harvey Bullock wrote:
JordanT4021 wrote:I dont understand how this is connected to Euthanasia. Ra's doesn't want to die, he wants to rise again. Can someone please explain this to me?

You're under the assumption that he is of sound mind, which he clearly isn't. They state that he's living in pain and he clearly isn't operating in any comfortable life. R'as may not want to 'explicitly' die, but it's implied by Nyssa that he is both mentally unfit to make conscious decisions and is no physical presence either.

Yeah. No matter where you fall on this issue we can agree that this is not really an effective example of it. After all the variable of him having died over and over kinda makes this a whole different debate.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby JordanT4021 » Dec 23rd, 2015, 8:34 pm

Red leader wrote:
JordanT4021 wrote:I dont understand how this is connected to Euthanasia. Ra's doesn't want to die, he wants to rise again. Can someone please explain this to me?

Nyssa's line about how he is no longer her father but just his injured body is a lot like how people try to justify euthanasia. Its not just about the person wanting to die it can also be if the person is in a coma. Like you said it doesnt line up well which is the problem. It is a lazy way to "tackle" a very complicated issue.

Thanks, that makes sense.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Red_Robin » Dec 23rd, 2015, 10:03 pm

I don't think that they were trying to 'tackle' anything.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Red leader » Dec 23rd, 2015, 10:16 pm

Red_Robin wrote:I don't think that they were trying to 'tackle' anything.

Nyssa's conversation to Bruce is clearly trying to make a parallel. Maybe its not tackling it but it certainly understands that its referencing it.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby JordanT4021 » Dec 23rd, 2015, 10:30 pm

Red_Robin wrote:I don't think that they were trying to 'tackle' anything.

Yeah, I agree. I don't think anything was meant by this and I highly doubt Rocksteady would make light out of a sensitive and serious issue. And lets be honest, when has Ra's al Ghul ever been of sound mind and body.
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