Shadow War Ending (POLL)

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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby The man who laughs » Dec 23rd, 2015, 11:23 pm

I saved Ras at first because I thought, I like Ras, he's a sound guy and I wonder if I would have a fight with him.

But when I played it again, I destroyed his machines, NOT KILLING HIM, in which I preferred this ending as it ended war, the rebels promised to leave Gotham, and Ra's will soon die. However, I think this would be risky as I could imagine a few other assassins trying to break Ras out in the near future.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Harvey Bullock » Dec 23rd, 2015, 11:26 pm

JordanT4021 wrote:
Red_Robin wrote:I don't think that they were trying to 'tackle' anything.

Yeah, I agree. I don't think anything was meant by this and I highly doubt Rocksteady would make light out of a sensitive and serious issue. And lets be honest, when has Ra's al Ghul ever been of sound mind and body.

No one's said that they've made 'light' of anything. Just that they've attempted to make a statement about Batman's morality that relates to euthanasia.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby JordanT4021 » Dec 24th, 2015, 12:02 am

Harvey Bullock wrote:
JordanT4021 wrote:
Red_Robin wrote:I don't think that they were trying to 'tackle' anything.

Yeah, I agree. I don't think anything was meant by this and I highly doubt Rocksteady would make light out of a sensitive and serious issue. And lets be honest, when has Ra's al Ghul ever been of sound mind and body.

No one's said that they've made 'light' of anything. Just that they've attempted to make a statement about Batman's morality that relates to euthanasia.

That's basically what I meant.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Red leader » Dec 24th, 2015, 12:17 am

Harvey Bullock wrote:
JordanT4021 wrote:
Red_Robin wrote:I don't think that they were trying to 'tackle' anything.

Yeah, I agree. I don't think anything was meant by this and I highly doubt Rocksteady would make light out of a sensitive and serious issue. And lets be honest, when has Ra's al Ghul ever been of sound mind and body.

No one's said that they've made 'light' of anything. Just that they've attempted to make a statement about Batman's morality that relates to euthanasia.

Which is a fascinating relationship to explore.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby SenSx » Dec 24th, 2015, 2:44 am

I really liked both endings.

The game saying you are a murderer if you don't cure Ras feels wrong indeed.
But, batman not helping someone dying might be a good argument, even if it is Ras.

I chose not to cure Ras, not only for story purpose, but to have the satisfaction to get 100% of the villains locked up, and not having an empty cell remaining there.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby ArthurWynne » Dec 24th, 2015, 5:18 am

I gave him the cure the first time around, but destroying the lazarus life support has a more satisfying ending. I felt bad seeing Nyssa die because I like her more than Talia. I didn't feel anything at all for Talia when she was killed (probably because she totally under-estimated Joker), but Nyssa I felt bad for. On the other hand, it shouldn't be Batman's business to finish off Ra's al Ghul, but instead he should be focused on having the entire League disbanded instead of trusting Nyssa to run the League without having innocents ever killed (how do you trust a league of assassins to do that?). The choice you're given as Batman echoes the choice Batman is given in Arkham City when he wants to save Talia before stopping Hugo Strange/Protocol 10 but is prevented by Alfred. Is the life of one person worth saving over the lives of many that could die by that choice?
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Mani-Man » Dec 24th, 2015, 11:27 am

I guess the choice is pretty much the bigger threat or the lesser threat.
Nyssa is easier to stop then Ra's imo.
So choosing to stop Ra's, is the lesser evil...for now.

It bothers me a bit that the whole story implicates that Batman "kills" Ra's when he doesnt give him the cure.
Its one story trope that i absolutly hate when it comes to batman.
Batman is not supposed to be the almighty saviour of the criminals and outlaws.
He is a man who saves people, what they do with their life...is up to them.

He didnt force Ra's into the pits, in city he told him to stop using it...what more can he do?

Its a interesting topic for discussion, because there is no real right or wrong answer, but forcing it upon me is not a thing i particulary like.

Either way, its a nice side mission and a fitting one for the overall Arkham Knight feeling.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby ClownprinceOfCrime » Dec 24th, 2015, 11:44 am

Harvey Bullock wrote:
JordanT4021 wrote:
Red_Robin wrote:I don't think that they were trying to 'tackle' anything.

Yeah, I agree. I don't think anything was meant by this and I highly doubt Rocksteady would make light out of a sensitive and serious issue. And lets be honest, when has Ra's al Ghul ever been of sound mind and body.

No one's said that they've made 'light' of anything. Just that they've attempted to make a statement about Batman's morality that relates to euthanasia.


No offence, but aren't you a little overreacting? Despite you and Red leader I didn't see anyone so far who even thought about this side mission as an alleged statement about euthanasia.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Harvey Bullock » Dec 24th, 2015, 1:59 pm

ClownprinceOfCrime wrote:
Harvey Bullock wrote:
JordanT4021 wrote:
Red_Robin wrote:I don't think that they were trying to 'tackle' anything.

Yeah, I agree. I don't think anything was meant by this and I highly doubt Rocksteady would make light out of a sensitive and serious issue. And lets be honest, when has Ra's al Ghul ever been of sound mind and body.

No one's said that they've made 'light' of anything. Just that they've attempted to make a statement about Batman's morality that relates to euthanasia.


No offence, but aren't you a little overreacting? Despite you and Red leader I didn't see anyone so far who even thought about this side mission as an alleged statement about euthanasia.

I apologise for any confusion caused, but I will reiterate that what I meant to say was that parallels can be drawn between the rudimentary dissection of Batman's morality Rocksteady attempted with this mission and the subject of assisted dying. Looking back at my previous posts I can see why some would think I was trying to implicate a direct link on the subject, but by implication alone it is obvious where the similarities are between the two matters.

At the end of the day I thought the option to give players a choice was fairly meaningless and that the statement being made felt rather crass and unbefitting of a series that has written Batman well in the past. The whole 'kill or save R'as' malarkey ultimately falls down to technical definitions of murder and whether someone thinks there is a direct causal link between Batman's act (destroying the Lazarus machine), and Al Ghul's death.

However, this whole commentary flies out the window as soon as Alfred lays out the argument for destroying the machine plainly and clearly. R'as is the embodiment of the undead, and his paralytic state is the only discernible difference between giving this choice to players now, and not giving it to them in Arkham City. Alfred's argument would have possessed the same points had he been attempting to convince Bruce to kill him there, except it is only presented to us here as R'as is clearly mentally and physically incapable of living a good quality of life.

Hope that helps understanding my line of thought a bit better.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby maxpower0044 » Dec 24th, 2015, 3:09 pm

I saved Ra's the first time because I'M BATMAN and I wanted to use Batman's flawed logic (lol)! I definitely plan on destroying the machine in NG+.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby MaxSchreck » Dec 24th, 2015, 3:26 pm

I think I have to agree that killing him is the more logical choice even if it means that Ra´s ultimately managed to break Batman to some degree.

Huh, maybe Ra´s could actually use a scenario like this in the regular comic continuity to mess with Batman, pretending that he now needs the Lazarus chemical on a regular basis to survive so Batman gives in and takes his life :oldyella:
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby AW8 » Dec 26th, 2015, 1:53 pm

"You want to know something funny? Even after everything you've done, I would have saved you."

I feel that administering the cure is definitely the more Batman thing to do. It's naive, it gets Nyssa killed, and the other choice is definitely more logical in hindsight. But still, Batman is holding the cure. Alfred may argue that technically, Ra's is not really alive... but there's still a dying man in front of Batman. A man only he can save.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Prisoner 4011 » Dec 26th, 2015, 6:37 pm

Ra's had to die. He was already dead to begin with, destroying and breaking his habit was the right thing to do. Nyssa ftw!
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby DatBat » Dec 26th, 2015, 7:23 pm

I picked to destroy the machine, it was the first thought I had playing the mission at two in the morning, but after watching the other ending, I'm glad it's the one I went with. Nyssa wasn't a horrible person like Ra's, and if you cure Ra's, she dies, and he gets away, so he'll end up doing things that end the lives of more and more innocent people. Nyssa made a promise, and when I did what she said to, she delivered. Ra's kills his daughter and disappears when you side with him. Ra's is a sick, twisted, cruel man who has become even more so with hundreds of years of Lazarus. The poor guy looked like a damn zombie, his guts were hanging out. Batman didn't kill Ra's, and knowing his character, my guess is that some time after the events of the game, he got out. But for at least a while, Gotham is safe from the League. Nyssa is their new leader, she left with all of her rebels. There are not many loyalists left, and chances are the rebels took care of them. The League is being led by someone with a healthy mind and body, and there is no more civil war going on between them. They left Gotham. Ra's might come out eventually, but the other ending kills Nyssa, the only logical member left, angers the rebels, and sets Ra's free. The war will rage on and be even more violent and dangerous. Batman's morality rules might mean something, but first and foremost he is the protector of Gotham. One evil man who was supposed to die thousands of years prior possibly dying VS. an evil man being restored to power with his army battling each other and putting Gotham in serious danger. The choice is clear.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Red leader » Dec 26th, 2015, 7:23 pm

AW8 wrote:"You want to know something funny? Even after everything you've done, I would have saved you."

I feel that administering the cure is definitely the more Batman thing to do. It's naive, it gets Nyssa killed, and the other choice is definitely more logical in hindsight. But still, Batman is holding the cure. Alfred may argue that technically, Ra's is not really alive... but there's still a dying man in front of Batman. A man only he can save.

Thats a good argument the problem is that in this game Bruce was so cold that I dont buy this version doing the emotionally driven thing.
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