Shadow War Ending (POLL)

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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby JordanT4021 » Dec 26th, 2015, 9:47 pm

Red leader wrote:
AW8 wrote:"You want to know something funny? Even after everything you've done, I would have saved you."

I feel that administering the cure is definitely the more Batman thing to do. It's naive, it gets Nyssa killed, and the other choice is definitely more logical in hindsight. But still, Batman is holding the cure. Alfred may argue that technically, Ra's is not really alive... but there's still a dying man in front of Batman. A man only he can save.

Thats a good argument the problem is that in this game Bruce was so cold that I dont buy this version doing the emotionally driven thing.

I agree, This is a great argument. Joker was in the exact same position as Ra's and Batman still would have saved him and Joker was his archenemy.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Harvey Bullock » Dec 26th, 2015, 11:44 pm

Joker was also on the brink of death and wasn't receiving massive doses of a drug that would make him a massive threat instantly...
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby JordanT4021 » Dec 26th, 2015, 11:58 pm

Harvey Bullock wrote:Joker was also on the brink of death and wasn't receiving massive doses of a drug that would make him a massive threat instantly...

He could have been given a cure that would return him to his chaotic and destructive self, making him once again Gotham's greatest threat. Sounds familiar in my opinion. There's not much of a difference.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Harvey Bullock » Dec 27th, 2015, 12:07 am

JordanT4021 wrote:
Harvey Bullock wrote:Joker was also on the brink of death and wasn't receiving massive doses of a drug that would make him a massive threat instantly...

He could have been given a cure that would return him to his chaotic and destructive self, making him once again Gotham's greatest threat. Sounds familiar in my opinion. There's not much of a difference.

Except there is, as Batman is able to match Joker physically and could've immediately subdued him after curing him. With R'as, you're dealing with a man comparable in physicality to Batman, hopped up on a drug that increases his strength and unpredictability and also in command of one of the deadliest organisations on the planet.

There's a big difference.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Red leader » Dec 27th, 2015, 4:42 am

Harvey Bullock wrote:
JordanT4021 wrote:
Harvey Bullock wrote:Joker was also on the brink of death and wasn't receiving massive doses of a drug that would make him a massive threat instantly...

He could have been given a cure that would return him to his chaotic and destructive self, making him once again Gotham's greatest threat. Sounds familiar in my opinion. There's not much of a difference.

Except there is, as Batman is able to match Joker physically and could've immediately subdued him after curing him. With R'as, you're dealing with a man comparable in physicality to Batman, hopped up on a drug that increases his strength and unpredictability and also in command of one of the deadliest organisations on the planet.

There's a big difference.

Your right. While Joker could have escaped later (we only know how probable that is since we are looking at this all from atop the fourth wall.....where bad comics burn. Sorry I had to :oldyella: ) Bruce saving him would not be the same as not only saving ras but giving him immortality till he needs to bath again which could be decades from now and by then he could have found another pit. My friend always brings up the trolley car problem for batman begins and dark knight (how Bruce handled Ras and later Joker and how those situations differ) here is it: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?

There is a second problem known as the fat man: As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by putting something very heavy in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you – your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed?

Essentially by letting ras die Bruce would be picking option 2 of the first problem however in AC letting joker die would be more like the fat man problem. Heck added onto that is the fat villain (what if the fat man was the one who put the people on the tracks in the first place) with the factor of Joker not immediately being able to kill and that solely being a hypothetical.

Of course the trolley problem is far more complex then anything in AK.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby PriestlyBlock67 » Dec 27th, 2015, 12:30 pm

Batman wasnt cold, he was just himself

Batman trust Nyssa more than anyone (besides his sidekicks)

Killing is never the right answer

The question is..did he kill or not? Ra's was like a zombie
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Red leader » Dec 27th, 2015, 8:45 pm

PriestlyBlock67 wrote:Batman wasnt cold, he was just himself

Batman trust Nyssa more than anyone (besides his sidekicks)

Killing is never the right answer

The question is..did he kill or not? Ra's was like a zombie

He was totally cold. I'm not saying he wouldn't do what he did if he was normal but he went about everything so emotionless.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby PriestlyBlock67 » Dec 28th, 2015, 5:24 am

Red leader wrote:
PriestlyBlock67 wrote:Batman wasnt cold, he was just himself

Batman trust Nyssa more than anyone (besides his sidekicks)

Killing is never the right answer

The question is..did he kill or not? Ra's was like a zombie

He was totally cold. I'm not saying he wouldn't do what he did if he was normal but he went about everything so emotionless.



On the outside, on the inside you can clearly see that he was burning

Or are you going to tell me that the section where oracle supposedly gets killed and Batman get on his knees and blame himself wasnt emotional? Same goes for that airship scarecrow section

Did you want Batman to lay down and cry through the whole story? You must love Felicity from arrown then, Batman is the toughest super hero of all time

-- Dec 28th, 2015, 5:25 am --

Red leader wrote:
PriestlyBlock67 wrote:Batman wasnt cold, he was just himself

Batman trust Nyssa more than anyone (besides his sidekicks)

Killing is never the right answer

The question is..did he kill or not? Ra's was like a zombie

He was totally cold. I'm not saying he wouldn't do what he did if he was normal but he went about everything so emotionless.



On the outside, on the inside you can clearly see that he was burning

Or are you going to tell me that the section where oracle supposedly gets killed and Batman get on his knees and blame himself wasnt emotional? Same goes for that airship scarecrow section

Did you want Batman to lay down and cry through the whole story? You must love Felicity from arrown then, Batman is the toughest super hero of all time

-- Dec 28th, 2015, 5:25 am --

BTW Alfred was cold as f*
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Red leader » Dec 28th, 2015, 5:59 am

PriestlyBlock67 wrote:
Red leader wrote:
PriestlyBlock67 wrote:Batman wasnt cold, he was just himself

Batman trust Nyssa more than anyone (besides his sidekicks)

Killing is never the right answer

The question is..did he kill or not? Ra's was like a zombie

He was totally cold. I'm not saying he wouldn't do what he did if he was normal but he went about everything so emotionless.



On the outside, on the inside you can clearly see that he was burning

Or are you going to tell me that the section where oracle supposedly gets killed and Batman get on his knees and blame himself wasnt emotional? Same goes for that airship scarecrow section

Did you want Batman to lay down and cry through the whole story? You must love Felicity from arrown then, Batman is the toughest super hero of all time

-- Dec 28th, 2015, 5:25 am --

Red leader wrote:
PriestlyBlock67 wrote:Batman wasnt cold, he was just himself

Batman trust Nyssa more than anyone (besides his sidekicks)

Killing is never the right answer

The question is..did he kill or not? Ra's was like a zombie

He was totally cold. I'm not saying he wouldn't do what he did if he was normal but he went about everything so emotionless.



On the outside, on the inside you can clearly see that he was burning

Or are you going to tell me that the section where oracle supposedly gets killed and Batman get on his knees and blame himself wasnt emotional? Same goes for that airship scarecrow section

Did you want Batman to lay down and cry through the whole story? You must love Felicity from arrown then, Batman is the toughest super hero of all time

-- Dec 28th, 2015, 5:25 am --

BTW Alfred was cold as f*

!st you can insult me but never say that I like that she-devil. 2nd: they say that he is emotional on the inside but the problem is that he never lets that out. yes he falls to his knees when babs dies but the problem is that he doesn't sound like he gives a crap. He for 3 seconds is on his knees and thats it. On the airship we get seconds of well done humanity and then its gone. You cant actually think that being the toughest superhero means that bruce cant actually show emotions for more then a few key scenes. There is a massive difference between a character trying to keep their emotions in and being as cold as bruce is. For instance in the dark knight when Rachel died bruce was not sobbing but he still seemed shaken up for more then a few seconds. When babs dies he gets over it to quickly and doesnt seem to be emoting beyond being on his knees. Also what a shitty example. Felicity is a selfish whore but that has nothing to do with whether a character is allowed to emote or not. Heck for how bad season 3 was the episode when ollie was refusing to emote over sara's death was powerfully acted by Steven. The problem with bruce in AK is that it feels like token moments and not actually genuine. A better example by the way would be spiderman not a supporting character on a tv show.

-- Dec 28th, 2015, 6:41 am --

PriestlyBlock67 wrote:
Red leader wrote:
PriestlyBlock67 wrote:Batman wasnt cold, he was just himself

Batman trust Nyssa more than anyone (besides his sidekicks)

Killing is never the right answer

The question is..did he kill or not? Ra's was like a zombie

He was totally cold. I'm not saying he wouldn't do what he did if he was normal but he went about everything so emotionless.



On the outside, on the inside you can clearly see that he was burning

Or are you going to tell me that the section where oracle supposedly gets killed and Batman get on his knees and blame himself wasnt emotional? Same goes for that airship scarecrow section

Did you want Batman to lay down and cry through the whole story? You must love Felicity from arrown then, Batman is the toughest super hero of all time

-- Dec 28th, 2015, 5:25 am --

Red leader wrote:
PriestlyBlock67 wrote:Batman wasnt cold, he was just himself

Batman trust Nyssa more than anyone (besides his sidekicks)

Killing is never the right answer

The question is..did he kill or not? Ra's was like a zombie

He was totally cold. I'm not saying he wouldn't do what he did if he was normal but he went about everything so emotionless.



On the outside, on the inside you can clearly see that he was burning

Or are you going to tell me that the section where oracle supposedly gets killed and Batman get on his knees and blame himself wasnt emotional? Same goes for that airship scarecrow section

Did you want Batman to lay down and cry through the whole story? You must love Felicity from arrown then, Batman is the toughest super hero of all time

-- Dec 28th, 2015, 5:25 am --

BTW Alfred was cold as f*

!st you can insult me but never say that I like that she-devil. 2nd: they say that he is emotional on the inside but the problem is that he never lets that out. yes he falls to his knees when babs dies but the problem is that he doesn't sound like he gives a crap. He for 3 seconds is on his knees and thats it. On the airship we get seconds of well done humanity and then its gone. You cant actually think that being the toughest superhero means that bruce cant actually show emotions for more then a few key scenes. There is a massive difference between a character trying to keep their emotions in and being as cold as bruce is. For instance in the dark knight when Rachel died bruce was not sobbing but he still seemed shaken up for more then a few seconds. When babs dies he gets over it to quickly and doesnt seem to be emoting beyond being on his knees. Also what a shitty example. Felicity is a selfish whore but that has nothing to do with whether a character is allowed to emote or not. Heck for how bad season 3 was the episode when ollie was refusing to emote over sara's death was powerfully acted by Steven. The problem with bruce in AK is that it feels like token moments and not actually genuine. A better example by the way would be spiderman not a supporting character on a tv show.

-- Dec 28th, 2015, 6:41 am --

Red leader wrote:
PriestlyBlock67 wrote:
Red leader wrote:
PriestlyBlock67 wrote:Batman wasnt cold, he was just himself

Batman trust Nyssa more than anyone (besides his sidekicks)

Killing is never the right answer

The question is..did he kill or not? Ra's was like a zombie

He was totally cold. I'm not saying he wouldn't do what he did if he was normal but he went about everything so emotionless.



On the outside, on the inside you can clearly see that he was burning

Or are you going to tell me that the section where oracle supposedly gets killed and Batman get on his knees and blame himself wasnt emotional? Same goes for that airship scarecrow section

Did you want Batman to lay down and cry through the whole story? You must love Felicity from arrown then, Batman is the toughest super hero of all time

-- Dec 28th, 2015, 5:25 am --

Red leader wrote:
PriestlyBlock67 wrote:Batman wasnt cold, he was just himself

Batman trust Nyssa more than anyone (besides his sidekicks)

Killing is never the right answer

The question is..did he kill or not? Ra's was like a zombie

He was totally cold. I'm not saying he wouldn't do what he did if he was normal but he went about everything so emotionless.



On the outside, on the inside you can clearly see that he was burning

Or are you going to tell me that the section where oracle supposedly gets killed and Batman get on his knees and blame himself wasnt emotional? Same goes for that airship scarecrow section

Did you want Batman to lay down and cry through the whole story? You must love Felicity from arrown then, Batman is the toughest super hero of all time

-- Dec 28th, 2015, 5:25 am --

BTW Alfred was cold as f*

!st you can insult me but never say that I like that she-devil. 2nd: they say that he is emotional on the inside but the problem is that he never lets that out. yes he falls to his knees when babs dies but the problem is that he doesn't sound like he gives a crap. He for 3 seconds is on his knees and thats it. On the airship we get seconds of well done humanity and then its gone. You cant actually think that being the toughest superhero means that bruce cant actually show emotions for more then a few key scenes. There is a massive difference between a character trying to keep their emotions in and being as cold as bruce is. For instance in the dark knight when Rachel died bruce was not sobbing but he still seemed shaken up for more then a few seconds. When babs dies he gets over it to quickly and doesnt seem to be emoting beyond being on his knees. Also what a shitty example. Felicity is a selfish whore but that has nothing to do with whether a character is allowed to emote or not. Heck for how bad season 3 was the episode when ollie was refusing to emote over sara's death was powerfully acted by Steven. The problem with bruce in AK is that it feels like token moments and not actually genuine. A better example by the way would be spiderman not a supporting character on a tv show.


Heck look at the scene from AA where Bruce tries to call Babs to say Jim died. There he is trying to stay tough but the death of his bff is making his voice quiver. Or in the game when he is brought into arkham in the fear gas opening. He screams and it feels genuine. how the hell is me saying bruce was to cold in AK anything alike to me wanting him to cry over everything. Your dodging criticism with the extreme opposite. i dont want him to be sobbing but I want there to be a sense of him actually holding back emotions in AK. they say his is but it never really comes across that way. Show dont tell.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Mr_Weasel_ » Dec 30th, 2015, 2:48 pm

Finally got around to playing SOI. Killed Ra's, if you can even call it killing him. In this particular scenario it was kinder to let Ra's go. He's lived several hundred years and health wise he is as good as dead. If anyone is killing him it's the League and their constant reviving of him. They won't set him free of his physical and mental agony but instead torture him by continuing to wake him up. The ending you get for killing him also kind of shows that he's happy to be let go unlike the ending where he jumps up and turns into a lunatic. I probably think too much of it. :P

The mission felt kind of off to me because it didn't feel in anyway like Batman was responsible for Ra's death despite everyone saying otherwise.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby DatBat » Dec 30th, 2015, 8:13 pm

I destroyed the machine in hopes Ra's would die. Batman's moral code is honorable, but if he were to actually put a stop to people that murder countless individuals, Gotham would be safer. Batman is in peak physical condition, and is probably only physically outmatched by (judging by characters that have been seen in the Arkhamverse) Clayface, Bane, Deathstroke and Killer Croc. And maybe the boxer guy. He could have put a stop to Joker's antics a long time before Joker ended up accidentally ending them himself. Calendar Man? He couldn't get a punch in on Batman if he tried. Batman knows these prisoners escape the asylum or Blackgate every time they get in. Every time he puts one in there, he risks the lives of all the guards, all the other inmates, and all the citizens of Gotham. Plus, Batman beats the living shit out of these people and thwarts their plans they probably spent a lot of time and money on, so when they get out, they'll be angry and want revenge, causing them to wreak havoc in Gotham. I quiver at the thought of ever harming somebody myself, but if Batman truly wants to be Gotham's savior and protector, he needs to know when it's time to end it. I'm not saying if someone robs a bank he should splatter their brains, but if there was a maniac murdering people and blowing up buildings like every Batman villain ever, the police would have no choice but to shoot them. Of course, if Batman did this, then Gotham would be rid of crime pretty quickly and there would be no more Batman stories, so it has to go on like this, this neverending cycle.

Also, knowing Ra's, do you think he actually was going to die? Sure, he was in prison, but I doubt the dozen or so assassins you fight when you blow the machine up are the only forces he has left. Gotham prison doors never close, the prisoner is back out before the door can shut, Ra's would be no different. Sure, he's more LIKELY to die than the other prisoners Batman brought, but even if he died, his body would be retrieved. Playing this mission, I already knew the Knightfall Protocol ending, and I knew that, as Batman, I had to do everything I could to keep Gotham at peace for the rest of my time. I never once thought that saving Ra's would cause peace. It would do the very opposite, and seeing the other ending on Youtube, it did exactly that. Ra's is thousands of years old, yet his actions throughout those years likely caused countless people to die before they should have. He lived many lives, and stole others lives before they had been lived. It's a really morally challenging topic, and one that's completely useless because this could never happen in real life, but meh, Batman stuff is important to us.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby BiGbAdBaTz » Dec 30th, 2015, 8:50 pm

In a game like this, I kind of don't like multiple choice endings. In a community where canon and stuff is so important, I don't love the whole open ended thing. Also, if my prayers are answered and we get a Beyond game, there'll be a lot of weirdness going on with stuff like the League and Azrael.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby DatBat » Dec 30th, 2015, 9:17 pm

BiGbAdBaTz wrote:In a game like this, I kind of don't like multiple choice endings. In a community where canon and stuff is so important, I don't love the whole open ended thing. Also, if my prayers are answered and we get a Beyond game, there'll be a lot of weirdness going on with stuff like the League and Azrael.

Chances are, both of the endings will converge in a way so things that happened eventually will happen. For example, if the Destroy Lazarus Machine ending ends up being the canon, Nyssa will still die at the hands of Ra's in between SOI and the next game so that it will still make sense to people who chose the Administer Cure ending. As for Azrael, the likely canon ending would be where Azrael breaks his brainwashing, but for people who didn't get that one, it will likely be that somewhere in between AK and the next game he still broke his brainwashing.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby Jokerkim » Dec 31st, 2015, 7:22 pm

AW8 wrote:"You want to know something funny? Even after everything you've done, I would have saved you."


I liked the multiple choice ending.

First time I chose to save Ra's. I felt that was the most Batman-y thing to do, and that exact quote from AC definitely crossed my mind. However, I was disappointed Nyssa had to die.

Second time I chose to "kill" Ra's and, like many here, were surprised to learn that that actually isn't the case (well, not directly anyway. Kinda like Batman Begins, I guess?). At the end of the day, I felt this was really the best ending and I felt better for myself afterwards. Ra's is no longer a threat AND alive(?), the league moves out of Gotham and Nyssa is still alive.
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Re: Shadow War Ending (POLL)

Postby cloakandcowl » Jan 2nd, 2016, 10:23 pm

After spending the entire game with Batman regretting that he couldn't save Joker's life and feeling all responsible and stuff, I couldn't bear another game(not that we're getting one) where he moped about upset that he killed Ra's.
So I picked to administer the cure. There is absolutely an implied parallel here with the Joker incident from AC.

Yeah it's forced and the consequences of your actions are not made clear before you make the decision but Batman would totally do it. Kinda. I mean, I don't believe that Batman would go grab the cure in the comics and bring it back if he intended to destroy the machine but EVERYTHING about the option to destroy the chair says that Batman considers that to be murder for some reason so... doesn't matter what I think, Batman wins!
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