How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Discuss the possibilities for "Batman: Arkham Knight" and the future of the Arkham series after Rocksteady Studios' swansong.

Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby DoomnightK » Jul 9th, 2015, 9:10 pm

- Azrael and Hush had an awesome build up in City. Since they ended up only being side-missions, they didn't have any real gravity to them. I would've integrated Hush & Azrael into the main story - the story needed the extra villains, too.

- Arkham City had a great thing of having every main character appear twice! This way, it felt like everyone was done justice in the story. In AK, I would've given Harley & Penguin a second appearance... Maybe Harley could've been used as a small tutorial thing near the beginning.
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby crush8503 » Jul 9th, 2015, 9:25 pm

Side Missions are NOT optional, if you want to get the "true" ending. What a terrible idea. You should be able to activate the Knightfall Protocol immediately after the main campaign. But oh no, you've gotta find every damn Riddler trophy first!
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby PriestlyBlock67 » Jul 10th, 2015, 4:47 am

AW8 wrote:Overall, I find this to be Rocksteady's weakest game. It improves on some things from City, but also takes several steps in the wrong direction.

Both combat and predator have gained a few fun new additions to play around with. Which makes the lack of proper Challenge Maps extra sad. I want to try out the new mechanics with different characters on different maps, not just play as Batman on the few maps offered.

I also think Rocksteady listened to the wrong feedback (or rather, implemented them in the wrong way) - namely the addition of the Batmobile and the requests for longer side missions.

I'm stealing the hell out of BuNKiTZ's format.

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Story (spoilers ahead)
Spoiler: show
The main plot of the game is complete schlock, it needs a total re-write to work. Batman is turning into the Joker for some reason, and Jason Todd has unexplainably aquired an army of trained soldiers and high-tech drones.

The whole "Batman is turning into Joker" plot point should have been cut.

Why is Batman turning into the Joker? He was cured in Arkham City. Having Joker's TITAN blood inside of you kills you, it doesn't turn you into the Joker. The 4 Jokers (Johnny Charisma, Albert King, Christina Bell, Henry Adams) should be dead since they never got the cure. Batman is in the same boat as all the infected who received the cure, if Batman is turning into the Joker then so should the hundreds contaminated with the Joker's blood.

Not to mention, having Joker as the main villain in all 4 games is lazy, unoriginal, tired. Mark Hamill should only have had appearances in Killing Joke and Death in the Family Fear Toxin hallucination flashback appearances, to set up Jason. But nope, once you open the door for Joker, it's Joker for entire game all over again. When Scarecrow is talking to Batman in the end, Batman completely ignores him as he's fighting the Joker in his head. Even when he's dead, he continues to be the main villain. This running gag has got to stop.

Ra's or Talia should have been behind the return of Jason Todd and his militia.

How did Joker fake Jason's death? What has he been up to all these years? From where did he get his army? I don't buy that Jason Todd can create a black ops team in Venezuela from nothing that can bring down a city. Thug conversations say that the Arkhamites threw their funds together to afford the army, but that doesn't make sense - Penguin's the only one with sizable funds, and recruiting, training and outfitting the army in just a few months is pushing it. They even managed to sneak the tanks into Gotham without Batman noticing. That's way above Jason's level. Not even Batman could pull off such a feat without his company fronts and near-endless resources.

Before release, I speculated that Ra's or Talia were behind the Arkham Knight militia. And as it turns out, that would have been much more logical than what we got in-game. The al Ghuls have the funds, the manpower and the training to pull off something like this. It would also tie in nicely with the last game, as a continuation of the Arkham City scheme. That way they could also have let Joker kill off Jason for real, and do the Lazarus Pit revival instead.

The Red Hood storyline should have had an awesome ending that provides closure instead of an incredibly lackluster ending.

The setup is pretty good. Jason taunts you and rants about you the entire game, and you get to see the events of his capture, torture and apparent death at the hands of the Joker. The Cloudburst boss battle, the Excavator boss battle and the Red Hood boss battle were all great. Batman then contacts Alfred and Jason disappears. His following appearance in the story is when he silently frees Batman in the ending. Oh, and he painted a bat on his chest off-screen. Seriously. Where is the closure?! The Red Hood bio says that he and Batman will forever be separated by the fact that he's willing to kill criminals. Is that what we get, a sentence in a character bio?! Show, don't tell!

The basics are there - after Jason sees that Batman still believes in him and didn't just replace him with Tim as if he were a spare part, Jason realizes that his quest to kill Batman is wrong and returns as a twisted version of Robin. But the presentation in-game is garbage. It's like it was rushed and unfinished, but it can't have been rushed, not with 4 years of development time and an 8 months delay. What the ending really needed is more scenes with the Red Hood, when he comes to Batman's aid as things are most dire in the Asylum. Hell, give me BATMAN AND RED HOOD DUAL-PLAY COMBAT. What a missed opportunity. This is a video game, give me some actual gameplay and not just cinematics.

The ending should have been better.

That goes for both the normal ending and the Knightfall Protocol ending - like having a definite ending unlock after sludging through all the side content wasn't stupid enough. The ending is dumb. Batman keeps Robin locked up in a compromised location for no reason. Batman has already defeated the Arkham Knight and unmasked him, as well as retrieved Barbara, why does he keep Tim locked up?

So, Scarecrow kidnaps him. Batman's only alternative is to surrender himself and hope Jason will follow him. The word that comes to mind is forced. This is no complex villain plot, this is an amateur hostage situation. An old man with a gun, a couple of armed mercenaries and Robin and Gordon hostage. Hell, the hostages could defuse that situation BY THEMSELVES. And are you telling me Batman doesn't even try to locate them? Or simply sneak in a gadget when he surrenders himself? It's like Batman didn't even care at that point, like he feels that the ending is near and it's time for lunch when they're done filming.

This needs a total re-write to improve. Come up with a better plot to get Batman to Arkham Asylum. And most importantly, provide some actual gameplay in the abandoned Asylum, instead of an interactive horror movie inside-Joker's-mind-inside-Batman's-mind.

The awful Knightfall Protocol ending can be completely removed if you don't do the incredibly forced "Batman unmasked" scene. Make a point of the fact that Batman will always be there for Gotham. The End. No vague hack ending in an attempt to be memorable.


Side Content (spoilers ahead)
Spoiler: show
Don't add playtime length by copy-pasting.

The biggest issue with the side missions is how they've added length by simply copy-pasting the same scenario over and over again. Almost every side quest suffer from this. Man-Bat involves the exakt same hunt three times, Firefly involves the exact same hunt three times, Penguin involves the exact same pursuit and fight four times, Two-Face involves the exact same bank robbery three times, Pyg involves the exact same corpse scanning six times, Azrael involves the exact same AR challenge four times, every Arkham Knight militia side mission involve the exact same scenario ten to twenty times...

Quality>quantity. Don't add filler to prolong playing time. I'd rather re-play one fun short game several times, than sludging through a boring long game once. The way they keep adding more and more and more bombs and militia outposts throughout the city is absurd. Eff that sssch. Give me three bomb scenarios, all diverse. Give me five watchtowers, all completely different. Give me one memorable Firefly chase.

Blowing up weapons caches until Penguin appear at the last one, stopping bank robberies until Two-Face appears at the last one, and finding a distinctive mark on every layer of the deep tissue scanner is so formulaic, lazy and stale that I have no words.

Do an actual sidequest with Hush.

Because what we got can hardly be considered a sidequest, gameplay- or storywise. Walk up to Hush and press a button. I have no words.

As for the narrative... what was the point of the build-up in Arkham City if this was all they did with it? Hush walks into Wayne Enterprises without a plan and hopes to replace Bruce Wayne somehow. What a butchery of the mastermind from the comics. What were Rocksteady thinking!?

Penguin and Two-Face are but shadows of their Arkham City selves.

What's there to say? Their roles in Arkham City are memorable and good. In Arkham Knight, they are filler side missions, robbing banks or moving illegal weapons. Zzzzzzz.

The way to fix it is probably by not making them side missions per se. Make one of their missions mandatory in the main quest, where Batman has to catch either Two-Face or Penguin in order to get the information he needs on the Arkham Knight. The one you don't go after becomes an optional side quest. And both of the encounters should be a single, long encounter instead of multiple copy-pasted filler parts.

Deathstroke shouldn't drive a tank.

Or at the very least, there should have been a melee fight between the two after Batman wrecks his tank. The way he jumps out of his tank and Batman takes him down in one hit in a cutscene, what an absolute letdown. Having Batman defeat Deathstroke with one punch is a disappointment in any medium, but having it happen after Batman spent hours taking down copy-pasted watchtowers, bombs and militia bases is disappointment on a whole other level.


General gameplay (spoilers ahead)
Spoiler: show
I wanted Arkham City 2.0, instead I got Batmobile Simulator 2015.

Damn the Batmobile to the fiery pits of Hell.

The Arkham games did not need it. Now we have physical proof that the Arkham games did not need it. It's forced down out throat no matter if we want to play the main story, side missions, collect Riddler trophies...

And as for the "Be the Batman" tagline. Fighting tanks in the Bat-Tank is as un-Batman as you can get. Filler tank combat, after filler tank combat, after filler tank combat. What where they thinking!?

Screw the races. Screw the Batmobile puzzles. Screw the long tunnels designed for mandatory Batmobile gameplay.

Cast it into the fiery pits of Hell.

Dual Play should have been utilized more.

It really feels like a prototype. We only get one Dual Play predator room. The Vanessa Studios level was a good implementation of Dual Play, the Catwoman Dual Play was fine but pretty minor, and the Nightwing Dual Play was barely there at all.

In upcoming DLC and games, I hope it's intergrated better and utilized more. It feels like a mechanic that should be utilized a lot or not at all.

Add proper Challenge Maps.

You don't design a level such as the Stagg Airship predator room or the last bank robbery and then not make it available for Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Catwoman, Harley Quinn, Red Hood or Batgirl to play around in. Not only are there only 4 predator/combat rooms compared to the 6 (12 if we count the extreme versions) in the other Arkham games, but you can't even utilize the DLC characters outside their campaigns. Which takes away a lot of their worth.

I'm certain that Rocksteady will add proper Challenge Maps that all characters can play, but unfortunately as paid DLC. Which is BS, this should have been in the game from the start.

Fear Takedowns should be nerfed or not added at all.

It's an extremely overpowered "I win"-button. You only need to perform one silent takedown before you can insta-KO five thugs in a Fear Takedown without even trying. Predator gameplay needed more challenges, not less.


The side quests were not copy & paste besides man bat, each confrontation had unique designs and explored that specific mechanic in alot of different ways

Fear takedowns are awesome, to balance it they made bigger rooms w/ more enemies in case you didnt notice.

Batmobile was awesome and a must they just got too excited and made a bit more tank battles than they should.

All plotholes you pointed out can be simply explained by paying more attention to the game's details.
Like: Oracle's computer was shut down, they couldnt find the hostages.
Batman had no sidekicks to help him since he sent nightwing back to bluhaven.
Batman couldnt sneak a gadget scarecrow probably checked him.
Batman wanted to die because he knew he was going to become joker and there was no cure(other than facing his dark side 1v1)
Oracle was adding more weight to bat's back by telling him to turn himself in to save the 2 loves of her life at all costs

Penguin, two face, Harley gave the money for the militia
The AK trained them
They manage to get tanks to gotham because they got everyone distracted with the massive panic of the evacuation, including batsy.

Why Batman is turning into joker? Especially after he got cured?
He received a more concentraded dose of joker's blood directly from the source, perhaps?
Use your imagination the story of the Arkham franchise has always been all about your own perception and opinion to what happened, that includes the ending too

I hated AC's story
To me AC was the weakest entry from all 4 games
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby BuNKiTZ » Jul 10th, 2015, 11:08 am

Ah, yeah. I don't think I mentioned boss fights in my post, did I? Boss fights would have been great, and not just Batmobile boss fights, nor unique Combat/Predator encounters (i.e. having a villain in a Combat encounter or Predator encounter as a special enemy type).

Obvious spoilers follow regarding the Boss Fights present or not present in the game:

Spoiler: show
The number of boss fights with the Arkham Knight was right for me. Three. It should have been one Batmobile fight, one Predator, and one Combat. Sadly, we had two frustrating Batmobile fights. Actually, we had three. Drone helicopter at ACE Chemicals. Yeah. Urgh. That was actually fun, though. The helicopter fight. More so in NG+ when I had so much firepower.

I don't know which of those three Batmobile battles to keep, though, but whatever. Just one.

The Predator battle with the Knight was alright. It was fun for the most part as any Predator encounter is, but the actual "fighting" we do with Jason was not satisfying at all. It was a battle where we simply had to find our way below his vantage point, and grapple up to it! As I believe I've mentioned before, it should have been more like Mister Freeze's boss battle.

Rocksteady already created the best template for a Predator boss fight, they just had to adapt it to other characters. WBGM did a great job with TN-1 Bane's boss fight. He adapted to Batman's tactics to a degree, unlike Freeze who adapted to everything. That made sense as Freeze had the tech and intelligence to deal with that. TN-1 Bane? No. He was high on, well, TN-1.

Arkham Knight's Predator battle should have been like that. Make it a game of cat and mouse, where Jason would adapt to our tactics. Sure, you don't have to make it so that we have to use every single Takedown method we have, just do a certain number until we deplete his health. That would make it more fun, actually, allowing us to play with different methods each time we reach that battle. Plus, you'd have his militia and drones backing him up so it would be fun and varied. We'd have to keep an eye out for both Jason and his soldiers. He shouldn't have just been up in the vantage points, but he should have been roaming around as well. Up top, he switches to his sniper rifle. Down below, dual handguns. Maybe transform his guns to an assault rifle or a shotgun. Use the incredible tech his militia has to adapt to Batman's Predator skills. Batman did a Silent Takedown? Have some drone controllers watch his back for him. Each Takedown we do could result in a quick little cut scene the same way each time we grappled up to his vantage point did.

Lastly, there should have been a Combat fight with him. Something similar to Deathstroke's as it really would have been a back-and-forth battle between the two. After all, Batman trained him and Jason most likely trained some more afterwards. It could be an evolving battle where we start out with gadgets and later do it with just our fists and feet. Either ways, it should be an epic, fast-paced, one-on-one battle between the two.

Two-Face. I can't really think of a way to make a good boss battle with him, but I know that it should at least not have him treated as an ordinary thug. I took out Two-Face without even knowing it. He was my second victim in a three-hit Fear Takedown sequence. I thought he was going to get back up after tha, similar to Catwoman's fight with him, but I was totally wrong. Players should have at least had to take him down a couple of times. Similar to how if we try to use a Special Combo Takedown on Black Mask in his Arkham City DLC, he'll stop us. But instead, we can inflict some damage as we do. I'm sure Dent is more capable than the thugs in his employ. Maybe if we try too early, he'll get a shot or two in as a counter attack, if you will.

Penguin, on the other hand... Erm, well, it should have really at least been a unique Combat encounter. He's described as a surprisingly good fighter in his bio, so put that to use. He has knuckledusters for Christ's sake, don't waste it!

That would make sense for both Cobblepot and Dent as they're not the types to take on Batman on their own.

Their should have been at least one Scarecrow boss battle. And by boss battle, I mean something like what we had in Asylum. Something better than those, definitely, something more evolved. Something that doesn't involve the Batmobile, most importantly. What that is, I expected Rocksteady to come up with. Sadly, they disappointed. One of the reasons this thread exists.

Wait, was there a Harley boss fight? There was, right? Sort of? She was in that combat encounter in Panessa Studios, if I recall correctly. Though, I don't think there was a health bar. That's what we should have had. Harley and her boys fighting Batman and Robin, but she'd have a health bar that we had to deplete. We can use Special Combo Takedown on her, but it won't knock her out. It would be a special animation just for that battle. Then in the end, we'd do an automatic Dual Takedown. "Brotherhood of the Fist," right?

Other things I forgot to mention regarding Side Content and the Story:

Spoiler: show
The cops should have been more involved in the field. I know their excuse for not having them out there: There are tanks everywhere, and they'll get massacred. But guess what? There are still cops chasing after stolen cars! There should have been SWAT teams or something deployed to stop riots and we'd get reports from the comm system to help them out or something. It could be something like Origins' "Crime-in-Progress" system.

Maybe we could have an entire side mission involving cops instead--oh, wait. That's probably where Prometheus' DLC comes in. He's supposed to be one of the villains for Season of Infamy, according to the PC files. So, there's that. See, they should have just included him in the main story. It would make more sense than only having a handful of villains take advantage of this. It would have fit the story, which is the only reason he's going to be in DLC as opposed to the base game. Sefton said some villains and stories they wanted to do didn't fit the base game's premise/story. *sighs*

Another thing is to involve Aaron Cash more. Don't just let him stand behind that damn desk. Get him to do something! Harvey Bullock and Renee Montoya should have been included in the story as well. I'm supposed to believe that they're not here to help Batman or at least Gordon? Seriously? They could have been some amazing Most Wanted mission. Do some detective work with them, or something like that. Sure, Bullock would blow Bats off, but Renee would help Batman out behind Harvey's back. Yeah. I like that. We should have gotten something like that. Maybe they're chasing after some villain and it starts off with us hearing something on the radio. Harvey and/or Renee calling for backup because they're pinned down and taking heavy fire from some thugs. We have to come in and do some sweet Predator moves and assist them. It shouldn't have to be something where they can only get back to fighting the goons after Batman takes them all out, of course. You'd have to take out some specific thugs or a specific number in order for them to be able to jump in and assist you. It would create an interesting Predator situation where you have two allies, but neither are like you who could do Silent Takedowns and the like. Shit. Damn these ideas that RS did not have!

The Falcones should have been there at the Falcone Shipping Yard. Maybe Alberto or Carmine, I don't care. Somebody. My idea is that they would take advantage of the chaos to bring organized crime back into the fold. They know very well that Batman's going to take down all the colourful criminals, so they keep quiet and err, do something without anybody's knowledge. It would be a post-ending (not Knightfall, "Wayne vs. Crane") side mission that gets unlocked if you return to the shipping yard. We'll be able to spot something which will prompt players to investigate the area and find traces of some criminal activity or whatever.

And Leslie [Thompkins] should have been there too. You would have me believe that Batman would get shot, be in pain, and then he just shrugs it off? Come on. The whole point of Jason knowing that weak spot in his armor was so that it would leave Batman hurt and vulnerable. We should have at least had to get patched up with Leslie's help. Or maybe Alfred urges us to visit her. Though, *sighs* yeah, I get it. She probably evacuated too. Wouldn't be safe for her anyhow.

Of course, what they could have done was include the Bat Cave and Wayne Manor. Similar to Arkham Origins, we'd need the Batwing to get there. That way, all the man-hours you put into creating the damn thing wouldn't be wasted for a few seconds in a couple of cutscenes. *sighs* This way, we can have Leslie in the game and interact with Alfred. And have even more Easter Eggs. What I mean to say is, we could have Leslie taking shelter there for the meantime, waiting for any of the Bats who might need some medical assistance. Then again, I suppose that's what Alfred could do. But hey, it would make sense to need more than just Alfred's help tonight. After all, he is serving as Oracle's temporary replacement after her abduction.

Lastly, I want an option to turn off the Joker. If not that, just lessen him. As much as I love his dialogue and Hamill's performance (always top-notch, unlike Conroy, sadly), there are several scenes where he just gets in the way. It's fine to have him in moments where there isn't a cut scene, like when we're leaving Panessa Studios without telling Robin about Oracle, or when the militia ambushed Batman and we had to use the Batmobile Remote Control to take them out, those were fine. But Oracle's "death?" Arkham Knight's reveal? Christ. Get the POW out of my screen, Joker!

Or maybe we could have a mode or something where he's not there. Maybe, New Game ++ or whatever.

A Matter of Family:

Spoiler: show
Don't make Tim Robin. Either don't include Robin in it, or use it to develop Jason's story to add depth and more emotional investment into his character for the main game's story. Dick would be great too as he has had too little time on the screen and story, but I think it's too late into Batgirl's career for him to still be Robin. He's probably in Bludhaven at this point.

My idea works like this. You already have Jason's design as Robin. His model, too. You've got his voice actor. You have his animations through Red Hood. You just have to tweak all of those a bit and voila, brand new Robin. Get rid of the guns, change things up a bit, add some weight to his hits to emphasize his rage. Give him a "rage mode" like Harley's, which would work as a cool game mechanic, but it would also work into the story. Ah, but I already explained the "rage mode" bit in my first post. Anyway, this would work into the story as working closely with him, Barbara would really see how full of rage Jason is. Let's say it gets even worse here, so she tells that to Bruce, only to have it worsen even more at the end after Joker paralyzes Barbara. Which is how I assume the DLC will end. Then, "The Fall" happens.

Oh, and regarding two specific side missions:

Spoiler: show
Hush and Azrael were disappointing. The side missions in general didn't really have much of a story in them, but Hush's and Azrael's came with expectations due to their Arkham City side missions. Those were interesting. These? These were boring. Though, yeah, Azrael's at least had us playing the character, I guess. It was clever, they made him a re-skinned Batman and there was a story reason for that.

Their missions should have had more story and weight to them, especially Hush's. His family's hospital is right there--or is it his...? Do something with it! He's a hand-to-hand expert, right? Give us a fight! *sighs*

PriestlyBlock67 wrote:The side quests were not copy & paste besides man bat, each confrontation had unique designs and explored that specific mechanic in alot of different ways

Hmm, yes, you're right about that. One time, in Penguin's Most Wanted, I tracked a car down, and fought a bunch of guys. Another time, I tracked a different car down, and fought a bunch of other guys. Two-Face's? I took out a bunch of goons in three different banks.

And every time I found a dead body, I used the deep tissue scanner to scan each layer for one object each. They were all in different locations. It felt so exciting and new each time!

Spoiler: show
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby Mr_Weasel_ » Jul 10th, 2015, 11:21 am

AW8 wrote:Story (spoilers ahead)
Spoiler: show
The main plot of the game is complete schlock, it needs a total re-write to work. Batman is turning into the Joker for some reason, and Jason Todd has unexplainably aquired an army of trained soldiers and high-tech drones.

The whole "Batman is turning into Joker" plot point should have been cut.

Why is Batman turning into the Joker? He was cured in Arkham City. Having Joker's TITAN blood inside of you kills you, it doesn't turn you into the Joker. The 4 Jokers (Johnny Charisma, Albert King, Christina Bell, Henry Adams) should be dead since they never got the cure. Batman is in the same boat as all the infected who received the cure, if Batman is turning into the Joker then so should the hundreds contaminated with the Joker's blood.

Not to mention, having Joker as the main villain in all 4 games is lazy, unoriginal, tired. Mark Hamill should only have had appearances in Killing Joke and Death in the Family Fear Toxin hallucination flashback appearances, to set up Jason. But nope, once you open the door for Joker, it's Joker for entire game all over again. When Scarecrow is talking to Batman in the end, Batman completely ignores him as he's fighting the Joker in his head. Even when he's dead, he continues to be the main villain. This running gag has got to stop.

Ra's or Talia should have been behind the return of Jason Todd and his militia.

How did Joker fake Jason's death? What has he been up to all these years? From where did he get his army? I don't buy that Jason Todd can create a black ops team in Venezuela from nothing that can bring down a city. Thug conversations say that the Arkhamites threw their funds together to afford the army, but that doesn't make sense - Penguin's the only one with sizable funds, and recruiting, training and outfitting the army in just a few months is pushing it. They even managed to sneak the tanks into Gotham without Batman noticing. That's way above Jason's level. Not even Batman could pull off such a feat without his company fronts and near-endless resources.

Before release, I speculated that Ra's or Talia were behind the Arkham Knight militia. And as it turns out, that would have been much more logical than what we got in-game. The al Ghuls have the funds, the manpower and the training to pull off something like this. It would also tie in nicely with the last game, as a continuation of the Arkham City scheme. That way they could also have let Joker kill off Jason for real, and do the Lazarus Pit revival instead.

The Red Hood storyline should have had an awesome ending that provides closure instead of an incredibly lackluster ending.

The setup is pretty good. Jason taunts you and rants about you the entire game, and you get to see the events of his capture, torture and apparent death at the hands of the Joker. The Cloudburst boss battle, the Excavator boss battle and the Red Hood boss battle were all great. Batman then contacts Alfred and Jason disappears. His following appearance in the story is when he silently frees Batman in the ending. Oh, and he painted a bat on his chest off-screen. Seriously. Where is the closure?! The Red Hood bio says that he and Batman will forever be separated by the fact that he's willing to kill criminals. Is that what we get, a sentence in a character bio?! Show, don't tell!

The basics are there - after Jason sees that Batman still believes in him and didn't just replace him with Tim as if he were a spare part, Jason realizes that his quest to kill Batman is wrong and returns as a twisted version of Robin. But the presentation in-game is garbage. It's like it was rushed and unfinished, but it can't have been rushed, not with 4 years of development time and an 8 months delay. What the ending really needed is more scenes with the Red Hood, when he comes to Batman's aid as things are most dire in the Asylum. Hell, give me BATMAN AND RED HOOD DUAL-PLAY COMBAT. What a missed opportunity. This is a video game, give me some actual gameplay and not just cinematics.

The ending should have been better.

That goes for both the normal ending and the Knightfall Protocol ending - like having a definite ending unlock after sludging through all the side content wasn't stupid enough. The ending is dumb. Batman keeps Robin locked up in a compromised location for no reason. Batman has already defeated the Arkham Knight and unmasked him, as well as retrieved Barbara, why does he keep Tim locked up?

So, Scarecrow kidnaps him. Batman's only alternative is to surrender himself and hope Jason will follow him. The word that comes to mind is forced. This is no complex villain plot, this is an amateur hostage situation. An old man with a gun, a couple of armed mercenaries and Robin and Gordon hostage. Hell, the hostages could defuse that situation BY THEMSELVES. And are you telling me Batman doesn't even try to locate them? Or simply sneak in a gadget when he surrenders himself? It's like Batman didn't even care at that point, like he feels that the ending is near and it's time for lunch when they're done filming.

This needs a total re-write to improve. Come up with a better plot to get Batman to Arkham Asylum. And most importantly, provide some actual gameplay in the abandoned Asylum, instead of an interactive horror movie inside-Joker's-mind-inside-Batman's-mind.

The awful Knightfall Protocol ending can be completely removed if you don't do the incredibly forced "Batman unmasked" scene. Make a point of the fact that Batman will always be there for Gotham. The End. No vague hack ending in an attempt to be memorable.



Spoiler: show
Whilst I don't share your dissatisfaction with the game, I do agree with many of your points. As for the Joker, I don't know if I would have preferred the game without him because I thoroughly enjoyed the way he was handled in this and it was a different use of the Joker I haven't seen before, not to mention I have no idea what the final product would be like without him. For all I know it could have been worse. As for Bruce turning into Joker, I think it's because Joker's blood is still in him. Joker's blood was the carrier for the Titan disease and whilst Bruce was cured of the disease, the Joker's blood still remained. Basically the cure only cured the Titan disease rather than hitting two birds with one stone. I admit It's poor but I think this is how it's meant to work.
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby Pieter » Jul 10th, 2015, 11:26 am

I'm just gonna give my ideas for story and gameplay. I'll do the side missions later.

Story:

Spoiler: show
- I'd have Dick and Tim do a lot more and have them work together with Batman and Oracle as a unit to stop Gotham from falling into chaos. Nightwing is cleaning up the streets, Tim is working on a cure for the Joker infected, Babs gives them intel and Batman himself is out to stop Scarecrow. This way the focus is still on Bruce but the Batfamily also gets a bit more to do than just be there in 1 or 2 missions. Also I'd have Bruce caught for 1 mission and you have to go rescuse him as Nightwing.

- AK's Identity reveal was pretty obvious to any longtime Batman fan so I'd actually have him take off his helmet halfway through the game so that when Joker is in your head and you see Jason getting beat up you really get to feel the weight of Batman's failure. Your fights with him will not involve the batmobile and there will also be no predator battle. Just a straight up the hand to hand fight akin to the Deathstroke one from AO but tweaked to fit Jason's fighting style.

- The cloudburst is not a tank it is simply a machine in one of the buildings that goes off. You still have to destroy it but instead of a tank battle it is a really tough predator room and you get to go in after you defeat the miltia and destroy it. Afterwards Ivy still dies the same way because it was a really awesome moment for the character and I personally wouldn't change a thing.

- This is the biggest thing I would've changed the ending. Jim and Robin still get captured but Bruce instead of just going in on his own orders Nightwing to secretly follow him. Once you've had the crime alley scene and arrived there Crane starts talking and after he stops talking  he infects Bruce with the fear toxin and you get the whole trippy Joker takes over sequence. You vanquish the Joker within you and once you snap out of it you see Crane finishing up talking into the camera and ready to unmask you.

However just before he does Nightwing stops him and releases Bruce then Crane starts laughing and he says: "You imbeciles really thought I didn't have something else up my sleeve." He tells them about a second more powerful device with an even bigger blast radius that he hid beneath the asylum. Jim takes an injured Robin and a beaten up Scarecrow out of the asylum and calls for back up to to take them away so that they'll be safe from the incoming miltia. Bruce orders Nightwing to leave but Dick says no because he knows Batman can't do this alone. So now in the asylum you get a predator fight where you can dual play with Nightwing. You defeat the Miltia then head down beneath the Asylum to stop the device Bruce goes in and sees that can't stop it but he can contain it to just the Asylum. Dick says: "What's the hold up Bruce." Bruce knowing that Dick will die if he stays with him pushes him out of the room and orders him to leave the aslyum. Dick says: "No Bruce I can help you it doesn't have to end like this." Bruce knowing he won't get to say goodbye to all of his friends just says to Dick: "Take care of them for me Dick." Dick realises that he can't do anything else and escapes the aslyum. When the device is getting ready to explode Bruce contains the blast radius and the asylum explodes with him in it. The rest of the Batfamily and some Justice League members watch the news and they all look at the screen in shock as it states: The Batman presumed dead in Asylum explosion.

Alfred contacts Dick and tells him that although Master Bruce's death is very regretable there are still criminals at large and they need to be stopped so as Nightwing you inherit the majority of Bruce's unfinished side missions ( a few go to Tim) plus a couple of new ones that are specifically meant for Nightwing and Robin. Once you 100% the game you get the full ending which shows Dick, Babs, Tim and Alfred in the batcave deciding what happens to the mantle of Batman. They all think Dick should take over however he is hesitant but Alfred convinces him to do it and Babs holds his hand as she nods in approval.

After that you see a scene where Dick is suiting up alongside Tim then when they finish you see the camera pan up to a rooftop where Dick and Tim are standing as the new Batman and Robin. They dive off the building and the credits appear.


Gameplay:

Spoiler: show
- The core Predator and Combat gameplay is practically perfect I wouldn't change a thing.

- The tank gameplay is good but in the game there is too much of it I would have the there be 3 tank battles. One at the beginning, one at the middle and one at the end. Also I'd just scrap the cobras all together.

- The batmobile would be used for pursuits, riddler tracks and getting around the city. Also occasionally for some puzzles

- Nightwing will have a batcycle after you finish the story.

- Once you finish the game 100% you can free roam, explore the city or beat up random badguys as Dick, Tim or Selina.
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby BuNKiTZ » Jul 10th, 2015, 11:42 am

Pieter wrote:I'm just gonna give my ideas for story and gameplay. I'll do the side missions later.

Story:

Spoiler: show
- I'd have Dick and Tim do a lot more and have them work together with Batman and Oracle as a unit to stop Gotham from falling into chaos. Nightwing is cleaning up the streets, Tim is working on a cure for the Joker infected, Babs gives them intel and Batman himself is out to stop Scarecrow. This way the focus is still on Bruce but the Batfamily also gets a bit more to do than just be there in 1 or 2 missions. Also I'd have Bruce caught for 1 mission and you have to go rescuse him as Nightwing.

- AK's Identity reveal was pretty obvious to any longtime Batman fan so I'd actually have him take off his helmet halfway through the game so that when Joker is in your head and you see Jason getting beat up you really get to feel the weight of Batman's failure. Your fights with him will not involve the batmobile and there will also be no predator battle. Just a straight up the hand to hand fight akin to the Deathstroke one from AO but tweaked to fit Jason's fighting style.

- The cloudburst is not a tank it is simply a machine in one of the buildings that goes off. You still have to destroy it but instead of a tank battle it is a really tough predator room and you get to go in after you defeat the miltia and destroy it. Afterwards Ivy still dies the same way because it was a really awesome moment for the character and I personally wouldn't change a thing.

- This is the biggest thing I would've changed the ending. Jim and Robin still get captured but Bruce instead of just going in on his own orders Nightwing to secretly follow him. Once you've had the crime alley scene and arrived there Crane starts talking and after he stops talking  he infects Bruce with the fear toxin and you get the whole trippy Joker takes over sequence. You vanquish the Joker within you and once you snap out of it you see Crane finishing up talking into the camera and ready to unmask you.

However just before he does Nightwing stops him and releases Bruce then Crane starts laughing and he says: "You imbeciles really thought I didn't have something else up my sleeve." He tells them about a second more powerful device with an even bigger blast radius that he hid beneath the asylum. Jim takes an injured Robin and a beaten up Scarecrow out of the asylum and calls for back up to to take them away so that they'll be safe from the incoming miltia. Bruce orders Nightwing to leave but Dick says no because he knows Batman can't do this alone. So now in the asylum you get a predator fight where you can dual play with Nightwing. You defeat the Miltia then head down beneath the Asylum to stop the device Bruce goes in and sees that can't stop it but he can contain it to just the Asylum. Dick says: "What's the hold up Bruce." Bruce knowing that Dick will die if he stays with him pushes him out of the room and orders him to leave the aslyum. Dick says: "No Bruce I can help you it doesn't have to end like this." Bruce knowing he won't get to say goodbye to all of his friends just says to Dick: "Take care of them for me Dick." Dick realises that he can't do anything else and escapes the aslyum. When the device is getting ready to explode Bruce contains the blast radius and the asylum explodes with him in it. The rest of the Batfamily and some Justice League members watch the news and they all look at the screen in shock as it states: The Batman presumed dead in Asylum explosion.

Alfred contacts Dick and tells him that although Master Bruce's death is very regretable there are still criminals at large and they need to be stopped so as Nightwing you inherit the majority of Bruce's unfinished side missions ( a few go to Tim) plus a couple of new ones that are specifically meant for Nightwing and Robin. Once you 100% the game you get the full ending which shows Dick, Babs, Tim and Alfred in the batcave deciding what happens to the mantle of Batman. They all think Dick should take over however he is hesitant but Alfred convinces him to do it and Babs holds his hand as she nods in approval.

After that you see a scene where Dick is suiting up alongside Tim then when they finish you see the camera pan up to a rooftop where Dick and Tim are standing as the new Batman and Robin. They dive off the building and the credits appear.


Gameplay:

Spoiler: show
- The core Predator and Combat gameplay is practically perfect I wouldn't change a thing.

- The tank gameplay is good but in the game there is too much of it I would have the there be 3 tank battles. One at the beginning, one at the middle and one at the end. Also I'd just scrap the cobras all together.

- The batmobile would be used for pursuits, riddler tracks and getting around the city. Also occasionally for some puzzles

- Nightwing will have a batcycle after you finish the story.

- Once you finish the game 100% you can free roam, explore the city or beat up random badguys as Dick, Tim or Selina.

I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE FEELS WHILE EATING MY DINNER, YOU ASS ; _ ;

This would have been such a perfect ending, and it would fit perfectly with the "Father to Son" theme.

Spoiler: show
You could even have a secret tape Bruce left behind for Dick that we'd have to find or something.
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby Dick » Jul 10th, 2015, 11:50 am

wtf Pieter you're just not allowed to go around making people sad like that
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby Harvey Bullock » Jul 10th, 2015, 12:06 pm

Yeah what the hell that storyline is already 20x better than the one we got in Knight. Why can't we have a Batman game without Bruce for once? :(
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby Mr_Weasel_ » Jul 10th, 2015, 12:20 pm

I think Pieter just made everyone depressed. That ending would have been amazing.
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby BuNKiTZ » Jul 10th, 2015, 12:45 pm

Ugh. God. I really wish there was an alternate ending/cut for Arkham Knight. POW. Damn you, Pieter. Damn you for showing us what it could have been.
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby Pieter » Jul 10th, 2015, 12:47 pm

I'm glad you guys liked it. :lol:
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby HaHaHa » Jul 10th, 2015, 4:39 pm

When Bruce said "I knew he'd follow" or whatever he said, I immediately thought it would be Dick.
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby Joe Chill » Jul 10th, 2015, 5:57 pm

1) Better ending, period.
Spoiler: show
Have Bats actually die and Azrael take over, or Jason save him from exposing his identity INSTEAD of just watching, etc. Not to mention we go back to Arkham Asylum for a fucking cutscene??? Let us replay through parts of the old prison for nostalgia and end it with an epic Scarecrow boss fight, dual-play with Jason. Boom.

2) REPLAYABLE BOSS FIGHTS (including DLC) - could easily incorporate 'Time Trials' into leaderboards
3) Better/Actual boss encounters? Man-Bat could have been so epic, or Deathstroke.
4) More Challenge Maps - outside of using all playable characters, incorporate heroes and villains into them like Zsasz and Gordon in AA, Black Mask in Origins and AK, Nightwing in AK, etc.

Not to mention a better story overall - all we saw was Penguin, Two-Face, and Harley "working together" up until release? lol Did that ever actually occur in the game?

How about a "Custom Challenge Map Builder" where we can essentially drag and drop thugs, villains, heros, etc. so RS doesn't have to worry about giving everyone the maps they want?
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Re: How Would You Make Arkham Knight Better?

Postby BuNKiTZ » Jul 13th, 2015, 11:10 am

If we could get that little bit before a challenge map starts where the character is standing there and saying something, yeah, that'd be great too. I miss those. I appreciate how fast we can restart an AR Challenge, but it wouldn't even bother me that I have to hit another button to get into the challenge since it doesn't even load anymore. It also helps to serve as a breather--for example, I need to pee and happen to restart my challenge cause I got hit. I'll know that the game won't start the challenge until I press the button to do so.

And just imagine all the sassy things Nightwing will have to say. Ahh ♥
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